The Gospel

[JohnD]

2 minutes ago, Reinitin said:

The Purpose of the Law

Oh, this will take at least another thread to debate or cover.

Paul covered it in Romans 3 - 8, Galatians, Hebrews (author: Paul IMHO), dipped his toe in Ephesians and places in 1 and 2 Corinthians....

In short... the Law was to establish what is good and what is evil, to be the measure / standard in judgment (especially the white throne Judgment) and to prove the utter futility of trying to be saved by any other means than the grace of God (the Law of Messiah).

I could add more and more and more to that but as I said to do it justice it would take at least another thread.

[Reinitin]

39 minutes ago, JohnD said:

The baptism of Noah (the flood).

I'm a bit rusty here, I'll get back with you on the scripture refs for this one.

The baptism of the Red Sea (children of Israel in the wilderness fleeing from Pharaoh).

1 Corinthians 10:1–4 (AV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The baptisms were a departure from the old into the new.

Jesus did so as  Jew fulfilling the office of Messiah (fulfilling the Law).

I am sure we are agreed he (Jesus) was and is sinless... if not I can show the verses.

BTW great exchange of ideas, Sister! ☺

 

 

Our Lord was tempted in all ways as a man but he was with out sin. That is correct. If he had sin the grave would of held him.

[Reinitin]

5 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Oh, this will take at least another thread to debate or cover.

Paul covered it in Romans 3 - 8, Galatians, Hebrews (author: Paul IMHO), dipped his toe in Ephesians and places in 1 and 2 Corinthians....

In short... the Law was to establish what is good and what is evil, to be the measure / standard in judgment (especially the white throne Judgment) and to prove the utter futility of trying to be saved by any other means than the grace of God (the Law of Messiah).

I could add more and more and more to that but as I said to do it justice it would take at least another thread.

Brother john. I believe you statement about baptism is a verses out of context con. I also believe teaching it as a mystery of God is a conflict created. Can we stick to scripure directly speaking to baptism in water? The doctins of men are like rat posion which is  usually 99.9% corn it's the .1% that kills the rat. When teaching a doctrin or principle of God we have to identify the corn and the poison. I do not mind a study on the accuracy or in accuracy of your statement. But i dont like bouncing like a ping pong ball through all the corn that is not the poison. I will ask you to meditate on the word and seek the Lord for an answer to my question.

So how do we resolve the great commision given to us to baptise in his name with your pervious statement?

My other question would be have you read the letters as a letter in whole as a fully cominicated thought, In lue of following verse threads through the bible and hebrew and greek word studies? Cause if you take a verse out of its context in a letter you can make it say anything you want outside the authors intent.

What are the works prepared for us mentioned in ephesians 2:10 and other places?

[Reinitin]

58 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Oh, this will take at least another thread to debate or cover.

Paul covered it in Romans 3 - 8, Galatians, Hebrews (author: Paul IMHO), dipped his toe in Ephesians and places in 1 and 2 Corinthians....

In short... the Law was to establish what is good and what is evil, to be the measure / standard in judgment (especially the white throne Judgment) and to prove the utter futility of trying to be saved by any other means than the grace of God (the Law of Messiah).

I could add more and more and more to that but as I said to do it justice it would take at least another thread.

I actually have full understanding on the purpose of the law. In Galations paul was in conflict with brothers who knew God had offered the blessing of "the seed" promised to Abraham before the law was given. Yet, to please the teachers of the law they seperated themselves from eating with gentiles to please men still in bondage to the law instead of pleasing God who brought salvation to all men by freeing us from the captivity of the law, sin and death. There is absolutely nothing in Galations that releases us from continuing the commision of Christ to baptise in his name. I would go as far as saying your statement runs very close to an anti- teaching of Christ. Which i imagine would never be anyones intension in trying to reveal salvation by faith.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Reinitin
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[Reinitin]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

My point in levity was only that "repent and believe the gospel" is not "sinner repent!"

Yes, mankind has sinned against God (Isaiah 64:6 declares even human righteousness are as filthy rags to God).

Repent means to turn from something to something else. Sin, yes. But the point John was making was the Kingdom of God was at hand.

The King (Jesus) AND the New Covenant.

Ok many things have been taught very ugly i might add about "sinners" and "repent". Sinner-besides Christ who isn't? Repent-who can transfer themselves from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of our Lord? If you study it, he gives us repentance the ability to turn and follow Christ and mercy and grace for our human failures. People cant teach or beat anyone into soiritual repentance. Our flesh is gonna die because of our sin. Judgment for sin has already been passed. Until Christ destroys death and the grave there is still a judgment passed on sin.

[JohnD]

As I said... a subject for another thread.

For now, you mention study...

Study this post and the next in one sitting. Read it very carefully.

Romans 7:1–25 (AV)
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[JohnD]

Romans 8 (AV)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[JohnD]

Next to study in one sitting...

1 John 1:5–10 (AV)
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:1–17 (AV)
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake.
13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

 

 

[JohnD]

Ah, you went and done it.

You got me on the subject.

Here's some more to read in one sitting:

2 Corinthians 3 (NKJV)
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you?
2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God.
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.
11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech—
13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

You simply cannot bring Law into Grace.

[Reinitin]

I totally agree with every scripture you posted it is Gods beatiful and total work for reconsiliation of mankind to God.  Is your argument there is Nothing, anyone does to enter in to this new covenant with God, all requirments for man are supplied by Christ? We all just hear the gospel and believe the account? Do not have to acknowledge you have sinned and ask forgivness? Do not have confess your belief that Jesus is Lord?  Do not have to be baptised? Because if you can use those scriptures to disqualify a direct commision to be baptised and direct commision to baptise then we can ignore romans 10:13 and every other scripture with an instruction for entering into the covenant. We can actually by your logic ignore believe as a qualifier.

This scripture equates baptism in the new covenant as an equal qualifying obedience as circumcision was to be set apart from the world as Gods in moses covenant with God. 

⁸ Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world, and not based on Christ. ⁹ For the entire fullnessof God’s nature^[b] dwells bodily^[c] in Christ, ¹⁰ and you have been filled by Him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.¹¹ You were also circumcised in Him with a circumcision not done with hands, by putting off the body of flesh, in the circumcision of the Messiah.^[d] 12 Having been buried with Him in baptism, you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. ¹³ And when you were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive with Him and forgave us all our trespasses.