Thirteen Heresies in THE SHACK

[Willie T]

41 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Willie no sees the direct contradiction .    For willie says its all about having a relationship with JESUS and uses the shack which actually says NOT ALL NEED TOO

that all WILL BE SAVED regaurdless.      Now aint that a dung pile book filled full of dung and putrid vomit .    NO love for that wicked book .   Not one ounce of it , FROM ME .

I stand against that pile of dung , that is what it is , and it preaches a false JESUS that does not exist .    And I would burn every copy IF I could .   

No love for lies .    Anway , you tried Shiloh.   BUT its very obvious willie has not mind to change his mind .     Henceforth the dusts gets shaken off .  

IF you desire ,  you can ask him how he views the all inclusive religion for world peace .   I WONT even ask him .    My hands are clean .   

I doubt you have read the book, but I will still take the answer someone else told you to believe.  Where does the book teach universalism?

Edited July 2, 2018 by Willie T

[arachnogeek]

3 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, that isn't what it says.   He raised Pharaoh up for a purpose.   He didn't create Pharaoh to rebel against Him.  He raised Pharaoh up in pride.   It's kind of like how you know someone so well you can predict how they will react to a particular occurrence or circumstance.   God knew how Pharaoh would respond because Pharaoh had already hardened His heart.   God didn't force Pharaoh to do what he did.   He could have stopped, but Pharaoh fitted himself for destruction through his rebellion.

That's the quintessential arminian spin on what really happened: God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Read Romans 9. 

[Willie T]

20 minutes ago, Davida said:

If someone lifts up the heretical Bethel Church as "loving" how much sound doctrine do they know and abide by, is what concerns me.  You seem to believe that all will be reconciled to God in the end, because according to what you said, Jesus unconditionally forgives everyone regardless and that isn't what the Bible says. 

He doesn't "unconditionally forgive."  The Bible clearly says He forgave 2,ooo years ago, and He offers us relationship with Him as children... IF we will accept the offer given.

[Guest shiloh357]

29 minutes ago, arachnogeek said:

That's the quintessential arminian spin on what really happened: God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Read Romans 9. 

God hardened Pharaoh's heart indirectly.   God did not force Pharaoh's heart to be hardened. In fact, Pharaoh hardened his own heart first.  God did not cause Pharaoh to do anything he was not already predisposed to do.

[Still Alive]

16 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, that isn't what it says.   He raised Pharaoh up for a purpose.   He didn't create Pharaoh to rebel against Him.  He raised Pharaoh up in pride.   It's kind of like how you know someone so well you can predict how they will react to a particular occurrence or circumstance.   God knew how Pharaoh would respond because Pharaoh had already hardened His heart.   God didn't force Pharaoh to do what he did.   He could have stopped, but Pharaoh fitted himself for destruction through his rebellion.

Yes, we are in agreement. God knew what Pharaoh was going to do an he "raised him up" for that purpose. Meanwhile, he loved Jacob and hated Esau, before they had done a thing. God is in control. He creates who he wants, and knows what we are going to do before we do it. He has the power to turn every heart, and, oddly, the bible clearly says that it is His will that all should be saved and none should perish. It's a quandary.

I think I'll figure it out after I die, because He'll tell me. My solution, in this age, is to judge no man. Todays atheist Christian hater is tomorrow's Billy Graham. Todays Saul is tomorrow's Paul.

[Guest shiloh357]

11 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

Yes, we are in agreement. God knew what Pharaoh was going to do an he "raised him up" for that purpose. Meanwhile, he loved Jacob and hated Esau, before they had done a thing. God is in control. He creates who he wants, and knows what we are going to do before we do it. He has the power to turn every heart, and, oddly, the bible clearly says that it is His will that all should be saved and none should perish. It's a quandary.

Not really a quandary.  God doesn't decide who is saved and who is not.   God doesn't choose people for salvation and other not for salvation.   God's perfect will is that all men be saved.  God's permissive will allow men to reject Him.  Just like anything else.  God's perfect will prohibits murder, but God permits people to murder.  

God's choosing of Jacob and Esau pertained to service not salvation.  God's choosing is always related to how we serve AFTER we are saved. All of us have a role to play in the kingdom. 

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I think I'll figure it out after I die, because He'll tell me. My solution, in this age, is to judge no man. Todays atheist Christian hater is tomorrow's Billy Graham. Todays Saul is tomorrow's Paul.

No need to judge anyone.  They are already under God's judgment if they choose continued separation.

[Still Alive]

7 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Not really a quandary.  God doesn't decide who is saved and who is not.   God doesn't choose people for salvation and other not for salvation.   God's perfect will is that all men be saved.  God's permissive will allow men to reject Him.  Just like anything else.  God's perfect will prohibits murder, but God permits people to murder.  

God's choosing of Jacob and Esau pertained to service not salvation.  God's choosing is always related to how we serve AFTER we are saved. All of us have a role to play in the kingdom. 

No need to judge anyone.  They are already under God's judgment if they choose continued separation.

What of those who never heard the gospel? What of those that were presented the gospel by a guy that, himself, was not believable? What of those who were raised by a sexually abusive father, step father, preist, etc.?

i.e. the abuse came with the message, so their view of God is that he is a monster. So what is their fate?

When the rubber meets the road, there are all sorts of valid reasons for a person to think this Jesus stuff is nonsense. Of course, it's because of how it is presented as well as their personal situation, some of which is their responsibility and some was foisted on them from the time of birth. So because they reject a poorly presented message by some $30 a month fire and brimstone yelling "preacher", they are lost? Is that your position?

And when you add to this the context that God's will is that none should perish, well, it gets kinda goofy. Looks like God created man, for the most part, to stoke his furnaces. What thinking man would take that message seriously? It's certainly not good news. And nowhere in the bible does God/Jesus try to "scare" people into obedience. That is not the Christian message. It's ridiculous on the face of it.

This also speaks to why I left the ECT belief for CI. But what it took for me to even be open to that message is decades of study of the Bible and prayer. It allowed me to see that the personality of the God of both the old and new testaments and the personality of the god of ECT can only be described as "Jekyll and Hyde". ECT matches NOTHING in the bible regarding how God responds to humans that do not do His will.

And this same understanding of the God of the bible, as well as my understanding of the actual words used in the Greek and Hebrew bibles (Olam, aion, aionion, aionios) is now causing me to study Universalism with an open mind, though I confess this one is more difficult to accept than CI. CI took a week. It was ridiculously obvious, and even more so today as I've continued to study arguments from both sides.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Still Alive

[Guest shiloh357]

5 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

What of those who never heard the gospel? What of those that were presented the gospel by a guy that, himself, was not believable? What of those who were raised by a sexually abusive father, step father, preist, etc.?

i.e. the abuse came with the message, so their view of God is that he is a monster. So what is their fate?

Those are not my problems to solve.  God will deal with those issues in  manner that is consistent with His righteousness.   

Quote

When the rubber meets the road, there are all sorts of valid reasons for a person to think this Jesus stuff is nonsense. Of course, it's because of how it is presented as well as their personal situation, some of which is their responsibility and some was foisted on them from the time of birth. So because they reject a poorly presented message by some $30 a month fire and brimstone yelling "preacher", they are lost? Is that your position?

There is only one way to God and that is through Jesus Christ.   Just because someone heard the Gospel presented wrongly doesn't mean they never heard the Gospel presented properly in their life time.  People have a litany of excuses for why they reject the Lord.  Doesn't change the message or what the Bible says.  God doesn't have alternate plans for different people.

 

Quote

And when you add to this the context that God's will is that none should perish, well, it gets kinda goofy. Looks like God created man, for the most part, to stoke his furnaces. What thinking man would take that message seriously? It's certainly not good news. And nowhere in the bible does God/Jesus try to "scare" people into obedience. That is not the Christian message. It's ridiculous on the face of it.

God's perfect will is that non should perish.  But He will let anyone go to Hell who chooses to reject His message.  He will honor their choice.   God created man to glorify Him.  If man chooses the opposite and rejects God, that is not God's fault.   Most people don't reject God on a thinking or rational basis, but on a spiritual basis. It has nothing to do with "thinking," at all.

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And nowhere in the bible does God/Jesus try to "scare" people into obedience. That is not the Christian message. It's ridiculous on the face of it.

Actually, Jesus said that those choose to follow Him, must take up their cross in order to so.   The "cross" was the most cursed instrument of death in that day and it represented the loss of all things.   He told them that to follow Him, they had to be willing to lose their family, friends, reputation and even their lives.   If anything Jesus made it harder to follow Him.   Jesus did what is actually counter-intuitive to how we do evangelism today.  It's almost like he was talking people out of following Him.  He was testing their willingness to follow Him and to endure the enormous cost of doing so.

 

Quote

And this same understanding of the God of the bible, as well as my understanding of the actual words used in the Greek and Hebrew bibles (Olam, aion, aionion, aionios) is now causing me to study Universalism with an open mind, though I confess this one is more difficult to accept than CI. CI took a week. It was ridiculously obvious, and even more so today as I've continued to study arguments from both sides.

To accept Universalism, you must reject the infallibility of Scripture, and you have reject the Gospel.  Universalism is a heresy.  It appears you want a Christianity you can define on your own terms, and not what God actually offers.  

[Still Alive]

5 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Those are not my problems to solve.  God will deal with those issues in  manner that is consistent with His righteousness.   

There is only one way to God and that is through Jesus Christ.   Just because someone heard the Gospel presented wrongly doesn't mean they never heard the Gospel presented properly in their life time.  People have a litany of excuses for why they reject the Lord.  Doesn't change the message or what the Bible says.  God doesn't have alternate plans for different people.

 

God's perfect will is that non should perish.  But He will let anyone go to Hell who chooses to reject His message.  He will honor their choice.   God created man to glorify Him.  If man chooses the opposite and rejects God, that is not God's fault.   Most people don't reject God on a thinking or rational basis, but on a spiritual basis. It has nothing to do with "thinking," at all.

Actually, Jesus said that those choose to follow Him, must take up their cross in order to so.   The "cross" was the most cursed instrument of death in that day and it represented the loss of all things.   He told them that to follow Him, they had to be willing to lose their family, friends, reputation and even their lives.   If anything Jesus made it harder to follow Him.   Jesus did what is actually counter-intuitive to how we do evangelism today.  It's almost like he was talking people out of following Him.  He was testing their willingness to follow Him and to endure the enormous cost of doing so.

 

To accept Universalism, you must reject the infallibility of Scripture, and you have reject the Gospel.  Universalism is a heresy.  It appears you want a Christianity you can define on your own terms, and not what God actually offers.  

The answer to all of your responses is in the definition of "aion" and its derivatives. So often, when our bibles say "forever", "eternity", "world", it is actually that word or one of its derivatives. And even within context, a better translation is "age", or "ages". and an age can be anything from a day or two, to thousands of years - or more. Yes, Jesus is our only salvation in THIS age. Those that are not saved in this age will not enjoy the next age. But what about the age after that one, and after that one. Etc. ?

[Willie T]

25 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

What of those who never heard the gospel? What of those that were presented the gospel by a guy that, himself, was not believable? What of those who were raised by a sexually abusive father, step father, preist, etc.?

i.e. the abuse came with the message, so their view of God is that he is a monster. So what is their fate?

When the rubber meets the road, there are all sorts of valid reasons for a person to think this Jesus stuff is nonsense. Of course, it's because of how it is presented as well as their personal situation, some of which is their responsibility and some was foisted on them from the time of birth. So because they reject a poorly presented message by some $30 a month fire and brimstone yelling "preacher", they are lost? Is that your position?

And when you add to this the context that God's will is that none should perish, well, it gets kinda goofy. Looks like God created man, for the most part, to stoke his furnaces. What thinking man would take that message seriously? It's certainly not good news. And nowhere in the bible does God/Jesus try to "scare" people into obedience. That is not the Christian message. It's ridiculous on the face of it.

This also speaks to why I left the ECT belief for CI. But what it took for me to even be open to that message is decades of study of the Bible and prayer. It allowed me to see that the personality of the God of both the old and new testaments and the personality of the god of ECT can only be described as "Jekyll and Hyde". ECT matches NOTHING in the bible regarding how God responds to humans that do not do His will.

And this same understanding of the God of the bible, as well as my understanding of the actual words used in the Greek and Hebrew bibles (Olam, aion, aionion, aionios) is now causing me to study Universalism with an open mind, though I confess this one is more difficult to accept than CI. CI took a week. It was ridiculously obvious, and even more so today as I've continued to study arguments from both sides.

Even though I have no idea, at all, of what ECT and CI are, your posts are interesting because you seem to use your mind.