Why I am a Post-Millennialist

[seeking the lost]

7 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Where do you put the rapture of the Church?

You may be aware of this scripture.  I Thessalonians 4: 13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

This places the rapture right after the resurrection.  The rapture cannot happen before the resurrection(the second resurrection).  Thessalonians gives the order, Revelation gives us the time.

[missmuffet]

9 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

You may be aware of this scripture.  I Thessalonians 4: 13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

This places the rapture right after the resurrection.  The rapture cannot happen before the resurrection(the second resurrection).  Thessalonians gives the order, Revelation gives us the time.

What is your timing for the second resurrection? You think this will take place after the 1000 year millennium?

Question: "What is the first resurrection? What is the second resurrection?"

Answer: Daniel 12:2 summarizes the two very different fates facing mankind: “Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Everyone will be raised from the dead, but not everyone will share the same destiny. The New Testament reveals the further detail of separate resurrections for the just and the unjust.

Revelation 20:4-6 mentions a “first resurrection” and identifies those involved as “blessed and holy.” The second death (the lake of fire, Revelation 20:14) has no power over these individuals. The first resurrection, then, is the raising of all believers. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14) and the “resurrection of life” (John 5:29).

The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints (Matthew 27:52-53) which should be included in our consideration of the first resurrection. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).

The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4), but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).

What great rejoicing will attend the first resurrection! What great anguish at the second! What a responsibility we have to share the Gospel! “And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire” (Jude 23).

https://www.gotquestions.org/resurrection-first-second.html

[seeking the lost]

4 minutes ago, Davida said:

16. is referring to the rapture and the dead in Christ shall rise first followed by the bride to meet Jesus in the clouds. 

Hi Davida,

Yes and this happens at the end of the thousand years.  There is not another time that the dead in Christ are raised that will allow the rapture.

[seeking the lost]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

Revelation 20:4-6 mentions a “first resurrection” and identifies those involved as “blessed and holy.” The second death (the lake of fire, Revelation 20:14) has no power over these individuals. The first resurrection, then, is the raising of all believers. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14) and the “resurrection of life” (John 5:29).

Hi missmuffet

The first resurrection is limited and specific.  All will be raised but only those who have remained faithful unto death are raised in the first resurrection.  It is a closed set resurrection.  That means only those specified are raised at this time.  The rest of the dead lived not until the end of the thousand years.

Be careful about adding to the text.

[missmuffet]

1 minute ago, seeking the lost said:

Hi missmuffet

The first resurrection is limited and specific.  All will be raised but only those who have remained faithful unto death are raised in the first resurrection.  It is a closed set resurrection.  That means only those specified are raised at this time.  The rest of the dead lived not until the end of the thousand years.

Be careful about adding to the text.

I am done debating this issue with you. Life is full of choices. Suit yourself.

[seeking the lost]

12 hours ago, Davida said:

I don't think so , seeking the lost. I think you have things out of order.

Hello Davida

What order would you suggest for me?  When do you suppose the resurrection will occur?  The resurrection and the rapture cannot be separated.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On ‎4‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 1:42 PM, seeking the lost said:

It is very easy to reject this or that interpretation but be careful of the interpretations that have to add to the Word.  Adding resurrections or raptures where it may seem to fit is way out of line and dangerous.  Be sure of this that the dead in Christ must rise first before the rapture and the end of the thousand years is the only time that can happen without adding to the Word.

Well, I think you've subtracted from the Word...  Sorry the first Resurrection, before the Millennium, mentioned six times but not to be added sequentially, and the only time we find that is in Revelation chapter 20.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On ‎4‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 2:48 PM, seeking the lost said:

The first resurrection is specifically stated, as you have adequately quoted, to include only those who have been beheaded, they have not worshiped the beast, they have not received his mark.  This resurrection does not include all saints.  It is a closed set.  Only those stated are included in this resurrection.  It is only those that are raised to reign with Christ.

That is a restricted reading.

Now when comparing the epilogue of Revelation, after the one 'seven' is finished at Armageddon, we can go to the broad overview in chapters 4-11 (exclusive), where with the Seals we find the Martyrs in the fifth Seal who must wait until their number is complete.  That is fulfilled by the death and taking up of the Two Witnesses coincidental with the end of the one 'seven' in the sidebar excluded from the broad overview in 11:1-13.

The resurrection of the Dead in Christ Paul alludes to in 1Th 4:16, along with the Rapture of those who remain and are left after the Great Tribulation nearly wipes out the Elect, are reflected in the Great Multitude arrayed the Father in Heaven in His Temple with the passage of the Day of the Lord, which begins at the sixth Seal.

The Great Multitude is heard cheering on our Champion, Jesus, on the eve of the final battle of the one 'seven' in Revelation chapter 19.

So, it is NOT "only those that are raised to reign with Christ" - but the final addition to the Great Multitude who DO reign with Jesus as Priests for the Millennium.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On ‎4‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 2:48 PM, seeking the lost said:

The rest of the dead that did not live again until the thousand years were ended is the general resurrection.  This one is inclusive and includes all those who have died up to this point only excluding those who were raised in the first resurrection.  There are those who are alive and remain these will be caught up at this point.

There are five times the Bible mentions two Resurrections.  The first is only for the Living, or Righteous/Saved - and the second gathers all who had lived: Living and Dead, or Righteous and Wicked.

First	Second
Daniel 12:1	Daniel 12:2
Mt 13:24-30	Mt 13:47-50
Mt 24:31	Mt 25:32-33; 46
John 5:24	John 5:28-29
Rev 7:9-17; 14:1-4; 20:4-5	Rev 20:11-12; 15

They are always presented in the same order: First for the only the Living; the Second for both Living and Dead (Spiritually speaking; most all of them have died except for the Elect in the Rapture.)

Paul says we are to be saved before the coming of God's Wrath.
Jesus said we, the Elect, will be saved after (the midpoint of the one 'seven' with) the abomination spoken of by Daniel, and after the shortened Great Tribulation.

Neither places the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ and the Rapture of those who remain and are still alive after the Millennium Reign of Jesus.

[seeking the lost]

10 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

There are five times the Bible mentions two Resurrections.  The first is only for the Living, or Righteous/Saved - and the second gathers all who had lived: Living and Dead, or Righteous and Wicked.

First	Second
Daniel 12:1	Daniel 12:2
Mt 13:24-30	Mt 13:47-50
Mt 24:31	Mt 25:32-33; 46
John 5:24	John 5:28-29
Rev 7:9-17; 14:1-4; 20:4-5	Rev 20:11-12; 15

They are always presented in the same order: First for the only the Living; the Second for both Living and Dead (Spiritually speaking; most all of them have died except for the Elect in the Rapture.)

Paul says we are to be saved before the coming of God's Wrath.
Jesus said we, the Elect, will be saved after (the midpoint of the one 'seven' with) the abomination spoken of by Daniel, and after the shortened Great Tribulation.

Neither places the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ and the Rapture of those who remain and are still alive after the Millennium Reign of Jesus.

Jesus said the tares are the first ones gathered out at the time of the harvest.  For you to say that Paul said we are to be saved before the coming wrath does not square with that.  Thessalonians teaches that we the living will not precede the dead.  The dead must be raised first then we who are alive and remain.

The first for the living and then for the dead, which you mention, does not even come close to the nature of a resurrection.  The first resurrection as described in Revelation 20 is of people who have had there heads removed and I think that is a resurrection of dead people.

You say, "Neither places the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ and the Rapture of those who remain and are still alive after the Millennium Reign of Christ."  The words of the Revelation describes the first resurrection at the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the millennium.  It very definitely describes those who are being raised and for what purpose.  Before this there have been no resurrections of this nature.  That is why John says this is the first resurrection.  The other statement is the rest of the dead lived not until the end of the thousand years.  The rest of the dead includes everyone who was not raised in the first resurrection.  It is not a good idea to add resurrections because you believe we will not suffer.  If we suffer with Him we also will reign with Him.