Is Maryology Idolatry?

[BobRyan]

On 5/8/2017 at 9:24 AM, inchrist said:

Isaiah 8:19 is prescribed by the following Law:

Deuteronomy 18:10,11 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

Certainly they are both inspired texts.

But as noted - the text says that the living should not go to the dead for requests on behalf of the living.

¹⁹ And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? (NKJV)

¹⁹ And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?(KJV)

¹⁹ When they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living? (NASB)

 

 

On 5/8/2017 at 9:24 AM, inchrist said:

"Seeking" in Isaiah 8:19 is defined by the Law of Deut 18:10,11as "Consult" or "consulter"

[/quote]

Requesting help... asking for favors... asking for guidance... sounds a lot like some published prayers to various departed saints.

On 5/8/2017 at 9:24 AM, inchrist said:

con-sult

Is defined as follows

  To seek advice or information of: consult an attorney.

[/quote]

One may consult a friend or family member of pastor or ... but they are all those who in 1Thess 4 "are alive and remain" they are not those in 1Thess 4 called "the Dead in Christ"

On 5/8/2017 at 9:24 AM, inchrist said:

In the only Case Study of such an action of one "Consulting" or "Seeking Advice" from the dead is found in 1 Samual 28:8,13 & 15

Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."

I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.

[/quote]

In that example - King Saul says "conjure up for me whomever I shall name" and specifically he says "by thy familiar spirit". 1 Sam 28.

Now have you read anything about Conyers Georgia along those lines?

Certainly "communion with the Dead" tends to go down that road.

 

 

[BobRyan]

On 5/8/2017 at 11:17 AM, inchrist said:

Well I could say the same for dispensationalism.

Perhaps its just the symptoms of protestants to separate things in the church, where as the symptoms of Catholicism is a unification in the church.

Its really what you arguing on.

When we discuss Protestant vs Catholic then we get to things like "Lateran IV" the supposedly infallible ecumenical council that called for the "extermination of heretics" - which has yet to be condemned. I think that sort of discussion is an entirely different thread.

[BobRyan]

On 5/8/2017 at 9:25 AM, inchrist said:

Between son and man not between father and man.....

How many times do I have to correct you guys on this?

If Mary is the mediatrix between God the Son and man - where does the Bible claim such a thing? Where does even one NT writer claim it? And what about co-mediator?

 

=================================== quote

"Mary, Mother of Salvation" -- https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/mary-mother-of-salvation 

"My first personal encounter with the Blessed Virgin Mary happened while I was a student at an Evangelical Anglican seminary in England. I had been brought up as an Evangelical and found my way into the Anglican church. There I was preparing for ordination. A Catholic friend who was a Benedictine oblate suggested that I might like to visit a Catholic Benedictine monastery. 

While there I told one of the monks that during a time of contemplative prayer I had sensed God’s presence in a very real, but feminine way. The femininity disturbed me because I knew God isn’t feminine. The monk smiled and said, "Don’t worry. That’s not God. It’s the Virgin Mary. She is the Mediatrix. She wants to help you with your prayers and bring you closer to God."

"I was shocked. At the time the Virgin Mary played no part in my devotional life. As a good Evangelical boy I had memorized 1 Timothy 2:5, which says, "There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus." By calling Mary the "Mediatrix," he had confirmed my prejudice that Catholics believe things that contradict the Bible. It also confirmed my suspicion that Catholics gave Mary an equal status with Jesus. 

I put this notion firmly to one side and didn’t consider it again until after I had come into the Catholic Church. This postponement was possible because Mary’s role as Co-Redeemer and Mediatrix of grace is not a formally defined dogma of the Catholic Church. It remains a pious opinion...I understand how Mary’s titles of Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix remain one of the sorest points in Evangelical – Catholic discussions"

 

 

[BobRyan]

58 minutes ago, inchrist said:

That would be a point of perception based on the doctrine of immortal souls which both you and the catholics prescribe to and what I see the nature of the two political religious believes 

I doubt that that such an idea about politics can be inserted in 1Thess 4

 

What is more - 1 Thess 4 does not use the term "immortal soul"

 

con-sult

Is defined as follows

  To seek advice or information of: consult an attorney.

[/quote]

One may consult a friend or family member of pastor or ... but they are all those who in 1Thess 4 "are alive and remain" they are not those in 1Thess 4 called "the Dead in Christ"

 

58 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Protestants are separatists in the body of Christ vs Catholics are unifiers in the body of Christ

That is the same accusation that the Jews made against the Christians.

Was not true then... still is not true today.

[BobRyan]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Yes but you forget the one text is reliant on the other. You simply can not add your own spin to it.

Isaiah 8 is not simply a "spin" added to what Moses wrote.

Both are inspired texts - both rely on God -- the author.

As noted - we may consult a friend, lawyer, doctor, co-worker asking for guidance, help, assistance -- the living -- to-- the living.

No Bible command against that at all.

[BobRyan]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

 Hardly, they not looking for a one on one discussion, the very reason for the law in Deut.

 

Isaiah 8 say not to seek out the dead on behalf of the living. period.

We can show examples of that very thing all day long -- on the topic of Mariolotry/Mariology etc.

[BobRyan]

19 hours ago, inchrist said:

I didnt say Isaiah is a spin added to Deuteronomy, your interpretation is what is the spin of Isaiah, Isaiah is directly quoting Deuteronomy

Isaiah

When they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living? (NASB)

Deut 18:11

or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

That is a fact, since Isaiah would formally be well aware what the laws are, so we shouldnt be surprised to find Isaiah quoting the law.[/quote]

[/quote]

NKJV - ¹⁹ And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?

Many examples of people resorting to Mary, seeking Mary, asking Mary for guidance favor -- asking her to fix stuff etc.

 

 

[BobRyan]

19 hours ago, inchrist said:

Based on the doctrine of immortal souls, they are very much alive.

[/quote]

Indeed - tradition has many spins on this.

But the Bible is clear - 

 What is more - 1 Thess 4 does not use the term "immortal soul" (Nor does any text of scripture)

 

One may consult a friend or family member of pastor or ... but they are all those who in 1Thess 4 "are alive and remain" they are not those in 1Thess 4 called "the Dead in Christ"

 

19 hours ago, inchrist said:

 

The obligation to obey the commands of Christ simply do not cease then, simply because one member of the body of Christ resides in heaven.

[/quote]

There is no "the Dead in Christ reside in heaven" text in all of scripture.

But in 1Thess 4 we do have "the Dead in Christ" mentioned.

19 hours ago, inchrist said:

 

Unless you can provide scripture that immortal souls are free from following the commands of christ simply because they are in a different realm? 

[/quote]

I can provide no scripture on the subject of "immortal souls" because there is not one. The term "immortal soul" is not in the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

This is one of those instances where what the Catholics teach and what some individuals within catholicism do doesnt always line up, this is a problem in all churches. So you going to paint the entire Catholics red simply because of a few dont listen to the actual teachings?

 

So then Popes, Cardinals, Church publications -- all of them "in error" on this topic??

 

[BobRyan]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Bob, I'm not going to keep going round in circles on this, you have no biblical legal bases at all to accuse the Catholic church of necromance. The catholic teaching prohibits anyone from consulting the died, intercession is a completely seperate matter.[/quote]

A distinction without a difference when seeking out the dead on matters that are in behalf of the living.

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

 

The problem you have with the term necromancy is you are attempting to apply the term indiscriminately

[/quote]

I actually don't use the term in this kind of discussion.

 

 

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

to mean all manner of communication with those who have died, this is an improper usage of the term and law.

Again it is not at all clear that your suggestion stands up to the facts in this case.

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

 

Further the very definition of "consult" is to seek advice,

That is one of many ways to seek out the dead on behalf of the living - in the Isaiah 8:19 sense of it.

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

hence why you go to an attorney or doctor for advice, they give you advice....that is called a consultation,

Regardless - they are living. And people consult family, friends, co-workers.

This is not solve the problem for the RCC with Isaiah 8:19 and their doctrine on "communion with the dead". You say that they are careful in such communion not to seek out guidance, help, advice on behalf of the living even though that is exactly what we see in their published prayers to the dead.

Let the reader decide on that one.