Predators, Dangerous Deviants & J.D. Hall of Pulpit & Pen

[Jeff2]

2 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Apparently, you don't really understand Gnosticism.

Apparently you do not understand how what you are calling Christian doctrine comes from Gnosticism, and not the Bible. 

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, Jeff2 said:

Apparently you do not understand how what you are calling Christian doctrine comes from Gnosticism, and not the Bible. 

My doctrine comes from Romans 4 and Paul's discussion on imputed righteousness.   Faith is imputed as righteousness, meaning it is imputed righteousness.  There is nothing "Gnostic" about it.  I know what the Gnostics believed, so you're claims are simply false.

[Spock]

Romans 4 for all to see

Abraham Justified by Faith

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”^a

4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7“Blessed are those

whose transgressions are forgiven,

whose sins are covered.

8Blessed is the one

whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”^b

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”^c He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.

18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”^d19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

[Jeff2]

16 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

My doctrine comes from Romans 4 and Paul's discussion on imputed righteousness.   Faith is imputed as righteousness, meaning it is imputed righteousness.  There is nothing "Gnostic" about it.  I know what the Gnostics believed, so you're claims are simply false.

You obviously do not know what the Gnostics believed. Quite simple.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, Jeff2 said:

You obviously do not know what the Gnostics believed. Quite simple.

Why don't you enlighten us, and post sources for review?

[Jeff2]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”^a

What was "credited"? Abraham's faith.

By grace, what did God do in response? Counted, reckoned, accounted him as righteous.

1 hour ago, Spock said:

5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Plainly tells us that "their faith was credited," but some want o use the foggy definition of "impute" to confuse the plain meaning in an effort to make the passages say something they do not.   

 

1 hour ago, Spock said:

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited?

What was "credited"? Not "righteousness," but Abraham's faith.

1 hour ago, Spock said:

11And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

The father of all them who believe... Faith! In order that righteousness might be credited to them (all them who believe.) This is the same order as every example Paul gives in this context. Faith is counted... God accepts faith as the condition of being counted righteous.

Properly speaking, we should be teaching the doctrine of imputed Faith like Paul did! Or better yet, losing the sloppy language of impute, which is set forth as a slick way to use people's presuppositions in order to arrive at an unbiblical conclusion, and use an accurate modern term of account, reckon, or credited.  

 

1 hour ago, Spock said:

20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”

"What" was "credited to him"? His faith! "it was"... in context says.. "His faith was credited to him as righteousness."   

Notice that it clearly does not say that "righteousness" is credited to him. 

Faith is the thing that is "credited, accounted, reckoned, imputed" and not the "righteousness." To reverse the order is Scripture twisting. 

On the condition of faith, God accounts, reckons, or credits a believer to be righteous. The foggy language of imputation, as used by most, would imply a transfer of character from one person to another. That would be a Theological fiction; you can no more transfer honesty to a liar, than courage to a coward. Personal character cannot be transferred.

As for Standing and State, a late invention of theologians, 1 Jn. 3:7-8 states, “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil.” It is plain and clear, a believer’s standing and state are the same thing. 

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by Jeff2

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Jeff2 said:

What was "credited"? Abraham's faith.

By grace, what did God do in response? Counted, reckoned, accounted him as righteous.

Plainly tells us that "their faith was credited," but some want o use the foggy definition of "impute" to confuse the plain meaning in an effort to make the passages say something they do not.   

 

What was "credited"? Not "righteousness," but Abraham's faith.

The father of all them who believe... Faith! In order that righteousness might be credited to them (all them who believe.) This is the same order as every example Paul gives in this context. Faith is counted... God accepts faith as the condition of being counted righteous.

Properly speaking, we should be teaching the doctrine of imputed Faith like Paul did! Or better yet, losing the sloppy language of impute, which is set forth as a slick way to use people's presuppositions in order to arrive at an unbiblical conclusion, and use an accurate modern term of account, reckon, or credited.  

 

"What" was "credited to him"? His faith! "it was"... in context says.. "His faith was credited to him as righteousness."   

Notice that it clearly does not say that "righteousness" is credited to him. 

Faith is the thing that is "credited, accounted, reckoned, imputed" and not the "righteousness." To reverse the order is Scripture twisting. 

On the condition of faith, God accounts, reckons, or credits a believer to be righteous. The foggy language of imputation, as used by most, would imply a transfer of character from one person to another. That would be a Theological fiction; you can no more transfer honesty to a liar, than courage to a coward. Personal character cannot be transferred.

As for Standing and State, a late invention of theologians, 1 Jn. 3:7-8 states, “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil.” It is plain and clear, a believer’s standing and state are the same thing. 

 

That is a theological train wreck and false teaching.  Subtle deception from the enemy.

[Guest shiloh357]

The Gnostic view on Salvation:

Gnostics do not look to salvation from sin (original or other), but rather from the ignorance of which sin is a consequence. Ignorance -- whereby is meant ignorance of spiritual realities -- is dispelled only by Gnosis, and the decisive revelation of Gnosis is brought by the Messengers of Light, especially by Christ, the Logos of the True God. It is not by His suffering and death but by His life of teaching and His establishing of mysteries that Christ has performed His work of salvation.

The Gnostic concept of salvation, like other Gnostic concepts, is a subtle one. On the one hand, Gnostic salvation may easily be mistaken for an unmediated individual experience, a sort of spiritual do-it-yourself project. Gnostics hold that the potential for Gnosis, and thus, of salvation is present in every man and woman, and that salvation is not vicarious but individual. At the same time, they also acknowledge that Gnosis and salvation can be, indeed must be, stimulated and facilitated in order to effectively arise within consciousness. This stimulation is supplied by Messengers of Light who, in addition to their teachings, establish salvific mysteries (sacraments) which can be administered by apostles of the Messengers and their successors.

One needs also remember that knowledge of our true nature -- as well as other associated realizations -- are withheld from us by our very condition of earthly existence. The True God of transcendence is unknown in this world, in fact He is often called the Unknown Father. It is thus obvious that revelation from on High is needed to bring about salvation. The indwelling spark must be awakened from its terrestrial slumber by the saving knowledge that comes “from without”.

http://gnosis.org/gnintro.htm

 

[Jeff2]

1 minute ago, shiloh357 said:

That is a theological train wreck and false teaching.  Subtle deception from the enemy.

I see, you don't believe the plain statements of Romans 4.

Theological Fictions have a way of infecting the whole. There is no virtue in believing a lie.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, Jeff2 said:

I see, you don't believe the plain statements of Romans 4.

Theological Fictions have a way of infecting the whole. There is no virtue in believing a lie.

I believe Romans 4.   I reject your sloppy interpretation of it.