Guest shiloh357 Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 10 hours ago, JoshuasonFlower said: James 2:14-26 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. King James Version (KJV) Public Domain That is not a treatise on salvation. James is not talking about how we are justified before God. He is using the word "justified" differently than Paul did. James is talking about our profession of faith being justified (in the sense of "affirmed") in the sight of men. Our works justify, support our claim to being followers of Jesus. That is the thrust of James's argument. James is a book that is written as a practical guide to Christian living. It is not evangelistic, but is instruction on Christian growth/maturity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted April 24, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 24, 2017 2 hours ago, shiloh357 said: The Bible teaches it in Romans 4. Just as righteousness was imputed to Abraham on the basis of his faith in the promise of Christ's redeeming work, so it is imputed to us on the basis of our faith in the same redemptive work. Shiloh, I'm a bit confused on this issue of imputed righteousness. I'm sure people realize one has to be Holy (without sin) before God to be acceptable. I understand the process to be Christ takes on my sins while I take on his perfect righteousness, which now makes me holy. This discussion has confused me because EO says you are saved through faith (leave out the baptism requirement for now). So, it sounds to me that when one believes in Christ's atonement, their sins are washed away, so one now becomes Holy and clean. So, are you saying they don't understand the process of what exactly happens at that moment? Do they even have to understand that process? Isnt FAITH in His atonement enough? Are you saying they have to have FAITH that imputed righteousness has taken place? Thanks for clearing this up for me (and maybe several others). spock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 13 minutes ago, Spock said: Shiloh, I'm a bit confused on this issue of imputed righteousness. I'm sure people realize one has to be Holy (without sin) before God to be acceptable. I understand the process to be Christ takes on my sins while I take on his perfect righteousness, which now makes me holy. That doesn't make you holy. Rather, it puts you in right standing with God, which is what "righteous" means. God declares us righteous (not innocent) when we trust in Christ. That is the one-time event of justification. God justifies us solely on the merits of Christ's righteousness and imputes to us (credits to our account) the righteousness of Christ on the grounds of our faith in Him. We don't take on His righteousness. This is a declared, legal state of right standing with God. We will not be intrinsically righteous, until we receive our re-created, glorified bodies and sin is eradicated. Until then, we are legally in right standing with God. Quote This discussion has confused me because EO says you are saved through faith (leave out the baptism requirement for now). So, it sounds to me that when one believes in Christ's atonement, their sins are washed away, so one now becomes Holy and clean. So, are you saying they don't understand the process of what exactly happens at that moment? Do they even have to understand that process? Isnt FAITH in His atonement enough? Are you saying they have to have FAITH that imputed righteousness has taken place? Thanks for clearing this up for me (and maybe several others). Dr. Paul Elliot says it really, much better than I can. Hopefully, this will anwer your questions. "The Eastern Orthodox church rejects the Bible's teaching that man is in spiritual bondage due to the corruption of his nature through the fall of Adam. Therefore the Eastern Orthodox church also rejects the doctrine of the imputed guilt of all mankind, having sinned in Adam. Eastern Orthodoxy teaches that men are guilty only for their own sins rather than being already under condemnation as a consequence of Adam's fall, before they have done any good or evil of their own. "Like Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy teaches the necessity of confession of sin to a human priestly mediator in order for the individual to maintain his salvation, and teaches that the Eucharist is a propitiatory sacrifice for confessed sins in addition to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. "Like Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy holds that salvation commences with water baptism. Eastern Orthodox theology falsely claims that no one can be saved unless he is baptized with water. "Like Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy teaches that man is able to cooperate with God in bringing about his salvation, and that regeneration is the product of a synergistic effort of God and man. Like Romanism, Eastern Orthodoxy rejects the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone as heresy. "The operative word describing salvation in Eastern Orthodox theology is theosis - "becoming God". This term describes an alleged progressive transformation of the individual into full likeness to God, in both soul and body, through a cooperative effort involving faith and good works. Like Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy denies the distinction between justification (God's unilateral act in declaring a sinner righteous based on faith in the merits of Christ alone - Romans 5) and sanctification (the indwelling Spirit of God conforming the regenerated individual more and more to the image of Christ, a work consummated in the believer's glorification - Romans 8). In fact, Eastern Orthodoxy's false doctrine of theosis additionally conflates regeneration with justification and sanctification." http://www.teachingtheword.org/apps/articles/?columnid=6435&articleid=81482 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff2 Posted April 24, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 85 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 24, 2017 21 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: We don't take on His righteousness. This is a declared, legal state of right standing with God. We will not be intrinsically righteous It's called Standing and State doctrine; the Theological Fiction of the Gnostics. It's not Biblical or Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff2 Posted April 24, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 85 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 24, 2017 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Spock said: This discussion has confused me because EO says you are saved through faith (leave out the baptism requirement for now). So, it sounds to me that when one believes in Christ's atonement, their sins are washed away, so one now becomes Holy and clean. So, are you saying they don't understand the process of what exactly happens at that moment? Do they even have to understand that process? Isnt FAITH in His atonement enough? Spock, since you did not get an answer to your question, I will affirm that the Biblical answer is NO! You do not have to be a Theologian or understand the mechanics of metaphysics in order to receive the benefit of the Atonement. Anyone that would say otherwise, is a Legalist teaching Doctrinal Regeneration. 55 minutes ago, Spock said: Isnt FAITH in His atonement enough? Yes! Faith in the work and the Person of Christ, and what He accomplished on your behalf. Edited April 24, 2017 by Jeff2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted April 24, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 24, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, shiloh357 said: That doesn't make you holy. Rather, it puts you in right standing with God, which is what "righteous" means. God declares us righteous (not innocent) when we trust in Christ. That is the one-time event of justification. God justifies us solely on the merits of Christ's righteousness and imputes to us (credits to our account) the righteousness of Christ on the grounds of our faith in Him. We don't take on His righteousness. This is a declared, legal state of right standing with God. We will not be intrinsically righteous, until we receive our re-created, glorified bodies and sin is eradicated. Until then, we are legally in right standing with God. Dr. Paul Elliot says it really, much better than I can. Hopefully, this will anwer your questions. "The Eastern Orthodox church rejects the Bible's teaching that man is in spiritual bondage due to the corruption of his nature through the fall of Adam. Therefore the Eastern Orthodox church also rejects the doctrine of the imputed guilt of all mankind, having sinned in Adam. Eastern Orthodoxy teaches that men are guilty only for their own sins rather than being already under condemnation as a consequence of Adam's fall, before they have done any good or evil of their own. "Like Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy teaches the necessity of confession of sin to a human priestly mediator in order for the individual to maintain his salvation, and teaches that the Eucharist is a propitiatory sacrifice for confessed sins in addition to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. "Like Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy holds that salvation commences with water baptism. Eastern Orthodox theology falsely claims that no one can be saved unless he is baptized with water. "Like Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy teaches that man is able to cooperate with God in bringing about his salvation, and that regeneration is the product of a synergistic effort of God and man. Like Romanism, Eastern Orthodoxy rejects the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone as heresy. "The operative word describing salvation in Eastern Orthodox theology is theosis - "becoming God". This term describes an alleged progressive transformation of the individual into full likeness to God, in both soul and body, through a cooperative effort involving faith and good works. Like Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy denies the distinction between justification (God's unilateral act in declaring a sinner righteous based on faith in the merits of Christ alone - Romans 5) and sanctification (the indwelling Spirit of God conforming the regenerated individual more and more to the image of Christ, a work consummated in the believer's glorification - Romans 8). In fact, Eastern Orthodoxy's false doctrine of theosis additionally conflates regeneration with justification and sanctification." http://www.teachingtheword.org/apps/articles/?columnid=6435&articleid=81482 Okay, thanks. I now understand why they don't believe Mary needed an Immaculate Conception of her own. She had no guilt coming into the world so no need for IC. Got it. Maybe this is why no one answered me when I inquired about the "once saved, always saved" doctrine. Based on what you said regarding "theosis" it sounds like salvation for EO is a life long process and not an instant transfer from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Eph 1) 8For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. (Eph 5) This salvation begins at water baptism thing reminds me of my RCC days when I was baptized as an infant. I now know that did nothing for me, but maybe did something for my parents or Godparents I suppose (Making them consider being responsible adults and raise me up to learn about God, which they didn't.) So, it appears to me one difference that can be discussed regarding doctrines is most Protestants believe in a "one time event of justification" as you so elegantly put it, whereby EO sees it more like a lifelong process of becoming like God beginning with water baptism. Perhaps this is what you meant when you said EO rejects the doctrine of justification by grace alone, because according to them, one needs to keep on working at becoming like God (theosis) which is a lifelong process. Does everyone agree to this above paragraph? If this is true, Im not sure why the EO camp just can't agree to this and admit this is what EO believes and promotes. If this is what they hold out to their followers, why not own it? (Come to find out, Joshua isn't even an EO member, so it seems like everyone here has knowledge through materials out there for us to examine. I'm sure we can all figure this out- what the church adheres to- without getting caught up in the small print, right?) i think I got it now. Thanks spock Edited April 24, 2017 by Spock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 46 minutes ago, Jeff2 said: It's called Standing and State doctrine; the Theological Fiction of the Gnostics. It's not Biblical or Christian. No, it is not Gnosticism. Sorry, but you're really way off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff2 Posted April 24, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 85 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 24, 2017 Just now, shiloh357 said: No, it is not Gnosticism. Sorry, but you're really way off. It's plain to see if one actually looks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 Just now, Jeff2 said: It's plain to see if one actually looks. Apparently, you don't really understand Gnosticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff2 Posted April 24, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 85 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 24, 2017 4 hours ago, shiloh357 said: The Bible teaches it in Romans 4. Just as righteousness was imputed to Abraham on the basis of his faith No, actually it says... FAITH was imputed, reckoned, or counted for righteousness, not the other way around. The Gnostic twisting of scripture may sucker the unwary, but not the person who reads the Scripture for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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