Mystery Babylon status rev.17

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

No, he really doesn't, and the elders aren't prophesying, they are speaking.  And they say, "Now the time has come for judging the dead."  They say it as a result of the 7th trumpet.  I understand you want to cling to the thought of being removed, and part of that includes a marriage and rewards which do not appear in that order in scripture.  You claim chronology, but you are not at all applying that in regards to chapter 19.  Inconsistency is very telling in regards to what is believable, this is precisely why I do not subscribe to the pre-trib theory.

God bless

¹⁸ And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Every verb in red above was translated from a Greek Aorist tense verb. Sorry, but these kinds of verbs in Greek SHOW NO TENSE AT ALL! There is simply no timing included in the Greek word. Therefore to attempt to include timing because in English it shows timing really does not work when we know these are Aorist verbs.  In case you did not know, most of John's verbs in Revelation are Aorist verbs that do not show timing.

If we look ahead in Rev. 20, we see rewards given, and we see the dead judged: THEN not here in chapter 11. And God does not destroy those that destroy the earth here either, but later in the book. We know His wrath came at the 6th seal, so here we just know He is STILL ANGRY.

The point is, the 7th trumpet sounding is what makes possible everything in the book that follows. But, we could say that same thing for the 7th seal. Unless or until ALL the seals are broken, the scroll cannot be unrolled to reveal the trumpet judgments. The the seals are not broken then, no trumpet judgments can come.

I believe in pretrib because that is what the bible teaches: NO OTHER REASON. I believe in Pretrib because that is what 1st & 2nd Thes. teaches, it is what Rev. 6 & 7 teaches, and Revelation 19.

OF COURSE I apply chronology in REv. 19. Please show us why you believe otherwise.

I don't think I have an inconsistant bone in my body. If you think otherwise, bring forth the scriptures and we will all be as the Bereans.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

The beast out of the sea.

Agreed! But indeed, both will be very much against Christ, but only the Beast out of the sea will come IN THE PLACE OF the Christ.

[wingnut-]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

¹⁸ And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Every verb in red above was translated from a Greek Aorist tense verb. Sorry, but these kinds of verbs in Greek SHOW NO TENSE AT ALL! There is simply no timing included in the Greek word. Therefore to attempt to include timing because in English it shows timing really does not work when we know these are Aorist verbs.  In case you did not know, most of John's verbs in Revelation are Aorist verbs that do not show timing.

If we look ahead in Rev. 20, we see rewards given, and we see the dead judged: THEN not here in chapter 11. And God does not destroy those that destroy the earth here either, but later in the book. We know His wrath came at the 6th seal, so here we just know He is STILL ANGRY.

 

The argument is not sensible to me, let me give you an example.

 

Revelation 7:2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

 

Using your argument I could say, No, that does not take place here, the angel is just prophesying about something that comes later.   See the problem with your application yet?

 

12 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

OF COURSE I apply chronology in REv. 19. Please show us why you believe otherwise.

 

Chronology from Revelation 19.

 

Revelation 19:After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! 2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.” 3 Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!” 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen! Alleluia!” 5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!”

 

First passage, Babylon is judged, her smoke rises up forever and ever.

 

Revelation 19:6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

 

2nd passage, the bride has made herself ready and the marriage of the Lamb has come...... after the fall of Babylon

 

Revelation 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

 

Third passage, Jesus comes for battle.  The fall of Babylon comes before the marriage supper which is followed by this event which brings us to the Millennial Kingdom.  That is the order here, not the marriage 7 years earlier.

God bless

[warrior12]

15 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Yes, Israel is definitely the harlot, but Mystery Babylon is about more than just the harlot, it also includes Jerusalem, and the beast along with his kingdom.  I forgot an important detail in my original post that I have since edited, but I will add that here as well as a starting point

Hi wingnut.  Thanks again for  your replies.  I did not get a chance to follow up on the threads as summer as to some chores. The Lord willing, will get back reading through the thread. I did skim through and see some strong disagreements, so i will get myself updated tomorrow. 

[other one]

9 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

They're both more in the middle, maybe the first one around page 6 and the second around page 8, both in response to warrior12 if you are interested.  They're not super long, but not short either lol.

That will take a lot of pondering...  too many verses tied together for me to be comfortable.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, wingnut- said:

The argument is not sensible to me, let me give you an example.

Revelation 7:2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

Using your argument I could say, No, that does not take place here, the angel is just prophesying about something that comes later.   See the problem with your application yet?

Chronology from Revelation 19.

Revelation 19:After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! 2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.” 3 Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!” 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, “Amen! Alleluia!” 5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!”

First passage, Babylon is judged, her smoke rises up forever and ever.

Revelation 19:6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

2nd passage, the bride has made herself ready and the marriage of the Lamb has come...... after the fall of Babylon

Revelation 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

Third passage, Jesus comes for battle.  The fall of Babylon comes before the marriage supper which is followed by this event which brings us to the Millennial Kingdom.  That is the order here, not the marriage 7 years earlier.

God bless

Sorry, but in chapter 7 we see the sealing accomplished right after verse 3 has been spoken.

What does John write after "the marriage of the Lamb is come?" We see "Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb."

Then John wrote of Jesus on the white horse. Therefore the ONLY conclusion we can draw is that the marriage takes place right at the point of mention, (which is what we can conclude in probably 99% of the verbs and associated action in Revelation) and then the marriage supper follows. We can also conclude that these two events will take place IN HEAVEN and right at the point in time they are mentioned.

If we take these events in the very order John wrote them, babylon fallen, rejoicing in heaven, marriage, then supper, then Jesus on the white horse and descending, we will be correct. We don't read of these events later on in the book. They will take place in the order of mention and at the time of mention.  I agree with you: the marriage comes right where John mentions it: AFTER the fall of BAbylon which will come AFTER the 70th week has finished. It is a myth as typical pretrib puts it, that the marriage is 7 years long, or takes  all the 7 years. I personally believe it takes place after the 70th week because the Old Testament saints do not rise up until the 7th vial that ends the week. The marriage must wait for them.

"He that sat" upon the horse was written in present tense: it takes place at that moment John saw it. "Was called" is present tense in the Greek.  "he does judge" is present tense. "Make war" is present tense.  When John wrote, "and I saw," that is a Greek Aorist verb.

The truth is, it is impossible to convey the same exact meaning from Greek to English. However, for the most part, the translators have used past tense English verbs since they have to put something down. Usually, just considering the events happening at the point of mention will be correct. But there are exceptions. As I pointed out, we see rewards given in chapter 20, and the judging of the dead mentioned in chapter 20. My point was, just because they are written in chapter 11 is not proof positive the Author meant that these events MUST TAKE PLACE in chapter 11 - especially when we can read of them taking place later on in John's narrative.

You have made a very weak argument here.

Edited June 4, 2017 by iamlamad

[warrior12]

On 4/28/2017 at 3:02 PM, Revelation Man said:

Well ALL FALSE RELIGION means she been around since the beginning basically. She has the blood of the Saints and Martyrs on her hands. It's basically the Spirit of THE WORLD that hates God vs. the Spirit of God.

I started reading over this thread again to get a clearer picture of how this thread had progressed and the contents.   So i read this and is seeing that you are referring to the Catholic church  or Roman Catholic Church. But there are other religions that are older than this church [Hinduism] and have not read where they persecuted the saints like the rcc  or killed Martyrs.  Islam did not exist then, and not sure where Buddhism fits in, but there were many more pagan religions though not organised and large as the rcc.  Maybe, i need to read the historical context of this here, but what book title would that be.  

[warrior12]

On 5/1/2017 at 5:13 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

The "harlot" has been around since nations began after the flood

This is the larger portion of lost humanity

Today the harlot leader is the USA and it is the Muslims of the Middle East that will form a kingdom there of 10 divides

These 10 kings will hate the harlot and destroy her at the beginning of the coming tribulation period [Revelation 14:8; 17:15-18]

 

As an idea or theory or fact, who knows.  But i like this thought.    I can see that happening, but no way near from now, as to the might of the USA military, unless by the divine act of God, he sends catastrophe which cause  the USA to decline at an alarming rate, which is possible.   We all know how the Middle East likes or hates the Great Satan.

[warrior12]

On 5/2/2017 at 1:44 AM, Sister said:

Hi warrior 12

I hear you.  There is a spiritual element to Babylon also, all the false beliefs etc are of her, I agree, but please look at the city this harlot reigns over;

Hi Sister

I feel like i have been given a front row seat of the area in how Mystery Babylon operates and believe me, i can write a book on events and situation that i have been through and i will be outrageous here and say it is like two parallel worlds.   You are right in of the fact, i can't  seem to place a physical entity of the harlot and her city or place of operation.   If i was to say or make a call today, it would be the USA, as it matches her description as of rev 18.  But i can't say that as i just don't know, but the harlot spiritual reality and how it is described in rev 17 and specifically 18 i can say with the Lord being the witness to my statement here is true and she operates today just as the rev 17 says, making men drink from her goldern cup, spiritually. Bold statement, but nevertheless true as an oath.      

USA is a relatively a young nation and unless the verse below is speaking of a future time then the USA cannot be the harlot.  When did the USA, killed the saints.  

rev 17

⁶ And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, warrior12 said:

I started reading over this thread again to get a clearer picture of how this thread had progressed and the contents.   So i read this and is seeing that you are referring to the Catholic church  or Roman Catholic Church. But there are other religions that are older than this church [Hinduism] and have not read where they persecuted the saints like the rcc  or killed Martyrs.  Islam did not exist then, and not sure where Buddhism fits in, but there were many more pagan religions though not organised and large as the rcc.  Maybe, i need to read the historical context of this here, but what book title would that be.  

You are looking at it all wrong, without realizing it. (I'll explain that at the bottom) The point is/was the RCC can't have the Blood of the Saints of old on her hands. All False Religion can. That doesn't mean that every False Religion has to have blood on its hand.

Demonstration......If you have 20 mob families, and 15 of them have killed priests, then the Mobsters as a whole still have the blood of the priests on their hands, and they all still need to be judged for being MOBSTERS. Likewise the False Religions all need to be Judged because they are after all False Religion which = Harlots which = Anti-God, but the facts remain, that all False Religions have caused the Deaths of the Saints and the Martyrs of God. Be it evil Israeli Kings that killed the Prophets because of the Word of God saying Thus Saith the Lord, be it Evil RCC policies 1000 years ago, be it the Babylonians who captured Gods peoples, be it the Egyptians who enslaved and killed Gods Saints, be it the Assyrians who took the 10 tribes away, be it the Romans who persecuted Christians/Martyrs, be it Antiochus and Greece who persecuted the Saints of Israel. 

They all have one thing in common, IF they understood the TRUE GOD, and His ways, they would not have murdered the Saints and Martyrs/Christians of God. But they did murder them, because they worshiped FALSE GODS.....even Hitler, no one can deny he was possessed, he was into the Occult, Satan led him like he will lead the Anti-Christ, Satan needs for all Jews to be vanquished, then Gods prophecies can not be fulfilled, in Satan's mind. So yes, in many cases they were killed by Government Entities like Babylon, Assyria, Rome etc. etc., but each Babylonian type entity of course was co-mingled with False Religion, Remember....the Harlot rides the Seven Headed Beast means she has been co-mingled with False Government from the beginning. If Babylon was co-mingled with the TRUE GOD, they would have known better than to kill the Saints, if Nero and Rome had of accepted Christ as their Lord, they wouldn't have murder all the Christians in the First Century.

Now as per Hinduism, its an Evil Religion that needs to be Judged. Whether they have ever killed Jews or Christians I don' know, but thy need to be Judged for leading men astray. Still, All False Religion as a collective WHOLE, has the Blood of the Saints and Martyrs on her hands. Remember, the goal is to find out who the Harlot Is....She can't be the RCC, or Rome, or even Islam, which was not around until 700 ADish. She can't be the United States who has been around for 200 years or is a Government entity, not a Religious Entity. 

Only ALL FALSE RELIGION Qualifies...........none of the others fit the bill. Now Islam is a part of it (the Biggest Part), the RCC is more than likely a party to her, the SDA, etc. all False Religions..................the Harlot is the WHOLE of the Lot. Just like there were 5 Mob families that didn't snuff out any priests, the MOB FAMILY HEADS DID. SO THE MOB DID IS GUILTY: FALSE RELIGION IS JUDGED.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Revelation Man