Genesis 1 & 2

[BobRyan]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, BobRyan.

Thank you for the welcome on opinions. 

In my study of the Hebrew of the passage, it's not that they were "corrupt" in the sense of being sinful; they were "corrupt" in the sense of DECAYING. That's what the word "shaachat" means:

OT:7843 shaachat (shaw-khath'); a primitive root; to decay, i.e. (causatively) ruin (literally or figuratively):
KJV - batter, cast off, corrupt (-er, thing), destroy (-er, -uction), lose, mar, perish, spill, spoiler,  utterly, waste (-r).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Thus, I don't think any malfeasance can be applied to the animals. The violence done was probably TO the animals, rather than BY the animals.

I don't think the Bible charges animals with being "sinful" either before the flood or today. It is only mankind that can be "Sinful". But as you point out the problem was more than "sin" -- it was also corruption. Decay is one form of corruption but not the only one.

Corruption in Genesis 6. Linked to violence.

¹¹ The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

10 hours ago, BobRyan said:

Gen 6

¹¹ The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. ¹² So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

¹³ And God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.^...7 And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die.

Violence was specifically listed as the cause/reason for the need to destroy the Earth. "all flesh" had corrupted its way  - not just mankind. The argument is not that the violence of predation alone was the great sin - only that predation could not be excluded "by definition" from such statements.

the corruption was specifically connected to violence. The vegetarian human and animal population "all flesh" ... "All the earth" had turned to a form of corruption that was exceedingly violent, hostile, yet the corruption itself is also a reason to destroy "all flesh". One way this can happen in phenotype of course is changes in DNA, and if those changes are in fact artificial. If they were changes that were genetically engineered by mankind - then the corruption of flesh may will have been a direct act of sin on the part of mankind corrupting the gene pool of both man and animals.

⁵ Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. ⁶ And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. ⁷ So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

Genetic pollution of the gene pool is exactly where mankind is now directing its efforts -- once again.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

   One of the features of the Messianic Kingdom will be that when the curse is partially removed animals will no longer be predatorial.   So, it appears that we can tell when animals became predatorial by noticing the lack of predatorial natures when the curse of sin is partially removed during the Millennium.  If the partial removal of the curse is the cure for the predatorial nature of animals, it stands to reason that the curse of sin  is the reason for and the source of their predatorial natures in the first place.

It doesn't apply to animals at all.  Animals are not sinners.  Animals are not redeemable.   Their predatory nature is the result of man's sin and there is no reason to assume that even if man remained vegetarian, that animals were not at least omnivorous.

Shalom, shiloh357.

Sorry, bro', but that's not quite right! Animals ARE "redeemable"; that is, they can be bought back from their predatory nature and from the decay and death that now ensnares them as easily as they do us.

Romans 8:16-23
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest (down-payment) expectation of the creature (created being) waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature (created being) was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature (created being) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
KJV

See, the thing is this: We might be tempted to believe that their predatory and carnivorous ways came from the Fall, but Peter tells us that the earths are separated by the Flood and the Fire:

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God (1) the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water (FLOOD), perished:

7 But (2) the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (FIRE before the GWTJ).
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for (3) new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

By the way, the key words in verse 8 are "with the Lord" and that's not talking about being from "the Lord's perspective," either! It's talking about OUR perspective when we are literally "WITH the Lord!" Why would that be? Well, if it's anything like it was when Moses was "with the LORD" in Mount Sinai (Exodus 34:28-35), then the Lord will be AGLOW, as "BRIGHT AS THE NOONDAY SUN! (Acts 22:6; 26:13; Rev. 1:16)" So, for a THOUSAND YEARS, He will be as bright as the noonday sun, and there will be no night in His presence (Zechariah 14:7)! It will LITERALLY be a 1000-year DAY!

So, what that means is that the "morning" of this 1000-year day will be a THOUSAND YEARS' different than the "evening" of this 1000-year day! His coming will be at the beginning of this "day," and the Great White Throne Judgment - the time of the Fire and the Day of Judgment and Perdition (Sentencing) of ungodly men - will be at the end of this "day!"

Thus, the dividing point between the "first heavens and the first earth" and the "second heavens and the second earth" was the FLOOD. The dividing point between the "second heavens and the second earth" and the "third heavens and the third earth" will be the FIRE. (This is also to what Paul was referring when He mentioned the "third heaven" in 2 Cor. 12:1-3, the same "third heavens" here in Peter's second epistle.)

Therefore, it would stand to reason that each of the interfaces between these AGES (Greek: aioones) would be a time when the diets of men and animals worldwide would change.

And, one more time, I'll say it again in a more general way: Why, if He had just destroyed the dry ground and all that was upon it for "being corrupted by eating meat," did God suddenly change His mind and allow the eating of meat AFTER the Flood, if that was part of the "corruption"?! Wouldn't He be trying to UNDO the "corruption" of His Creation?

Furthermore, if God had creatures that were carnivorous on the ark during the Flood, what sorts of problems would THAT create?!

 

[Retrobyter]

15 hours ago, BobRyan said:

I don't think the Bible charges animals with being "sinful" either before the flood or today. It is only mankind that can be "Sinful". But as you point out the problem was more than "sin" -- it was also corruption. Decay is one form of corruption but not the only one.

Corruption in Genesis 6. Linked to violence.

¹¹ The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

the corruption was specifically connected to violence. The vegetarian human and animal population "all flesh" ... "All the earth" had turned to a form of corruption that was exceedingly violent, hostile, yet the corruption itself is also a reason to destroy "all flesh". One way this can happen in phenotype of course is changes in DNA, and if those changes are in fact artificial. If they were changes that were genetically engineered by mankind - then the corruption of flesh may will have been a direct act of sin on the part of mankind corrupting the gene pool of both man and animals.

⁵ Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. ⁶ And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. ⁷ So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

Genetic pollution of the gene pool is exactly where mankind is now directing its efforts -- once again.

Shalom, BobRyan.

You said, "Decay is one form of corruption but not the only one." But, you see, it's the ONLY one that matters since that is what the Hebrew word means! Regardless what the translators chose for the translation word in English and the other definitions of that English word, it's the HEBREW word that's important to the understanding of this passage!

You quoted, "¹¹ The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence," but again, this does NOT mean that the two clauses were RELATED. They are two INDEPENDENT clauses linked together with a conjunction and the one is not the cause of the other!

[Guest shiloh357]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, shiloh357.

Sorry, bro', but that's not quite right! Animals ARE "redeemable"; that is, they can be bought back from their predatory nature and from the decay and death that now ensnares them as easily as they do us.

When I say "redeemable,"  I mean that Jesus didn't die for animals.  They are not included in the plan of salvation.  The predatory nature of animals is not "sin" where animals are concerned.  Animals cannot repent and turn from being what they are.

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See, the thing is this: We might be tempted to believe that their predatory and carnivorous ways came from the Fall, but Peter tells us that the earths are separated by the Flood and the Fire:

II Pet. 3:3-13 has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not animals were carnivorous as a result of the Fall.  Peter is talking about the flood of judgment that came during the days of Noah.   There is no such thing as "earths."   He is talking about our current earth, the flood of Judgement in Gen. 6-8 and a future judgment of fire that is coming on the earth.

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By the way, the key words in verse 8 are "with the Lord" and that's not talking about being from "the Lord's perspective," either! It's talking about OUR perspective when we are literally "WITH the Lord!"

That is incorrect. It is not talking about when we are with the Lord.   Peter is addressing the claims of scoffers who mock us for waiting on the Lord's return.   The scoffers interpret the Lord's delay in returning as evidence that we are waiting for his return in vain.  Why is He taking so long to return?   Peter's response is that the delay in returning is not because the Lord is falling down on keeping his promise.   His delay in returning is an act of mercy for the scoffers, giving them time to come to their senses and repent.  

Peter is not making an eschatological argument about the Millennium when he says that 1,000 years with the Lord is as one day and one day is as 1,000 years.   He is simply making the point that from the divine perspective, the return of the Lord is actually occurring  much faster than it appears to the scoffers.  It is important stay in the boundaries of context and not veer off into wildly false interpretative methods as you have done here.

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Thus, the dividing point between the "first heavens and the first earth" and the "second heavens and the second earth" was the FLOOD. The dividing point between the "second heavens and the second earth" and the "third heavens and the third earth" will be the FIRE. (This is also to what Paul was referring when He mentioned the "third heaven" in 2 Cor. 12:1-3, the same "third heavens" here in Peter's second epistle.)

No, that is not what the Bible teaches.   The Bible doesn't make that argument at all.  That is really bad interpretation skills at work, there.

The third heaven that Paul mentions having seen in II Corinthians is the heaven where Jesus ascended to.  The first heaven is understood to be our atmosphere, the second heaven is outer space and the third Heaven is where Jesus is now interceding for us as our Great High Priest.

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Therefore, it would stand to reason that each of the interfaces between these AGES (Greek: aioones) would be a time when the diets of men and animals worldwide would change.

You have not really proven that there are various earth "ages"  in the past.

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And, one more time, I'll say it again in a more general way: Why, if He had just destroyed the dry ground and all that was upon it for "being corrupted by eating meat," did God suddenly change His mind and allow the eating of meat AFTER the Flood, if that was part of the "corruption"?! Wouldn't He be trying to UNDO the "corruption" of His Creation?

Well, your question is an attempt refute an argument I never raised.  The Bible says it was the utter depravity of man that brought about the flood.  I never said it came about because animals were eating meat.   To be truthful, Genesis 9 is a concession allowing man to eat meat.   The Bible doesn't even say that man was not eating meat prior to the flood if you want really get down to what Scripture actually says.  But that would have been the least of their problems with regard to man's utter depravity at that time.

 

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Furthermore, if God had creatures that were carnivorous on the ark during the Flood, what sorts of problems would THAT create?!

What is more likely is that the animals were put into a state of hibernation at least for part of the time.   It was God who led the animals to Noah and God would have sustained them, as well.   There is a supernatural element to the event of that flood that must be factored into the account.  So you would not have had predatory animals acting out on their natures.

[BobRyan]

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, BobRyan.

You said, "Decay is one form of corruption but not the only one." But, you see, it's the ONLY one that matters since that is what the Hebrew word means!

As it turns out - there is not a direct translation of Hebrew into English in this case - hence the English translators use the term "corrupt". Even in English corruption can apply to many things - decay being one of them.

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Regardless what the translators chose for the translation word in English and the other definitions of that English word, it's the HEBREW word that's important to the understanding of this passage!

Neither "Decay" nor "Corrupt" is a Hebrew word. They are both English.

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You quoted, "¹¹ The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence," but again, this does NOT mean that the two clauses were RELATED.

 The violence was a result of the corrupt state... we have similar uses "null and void" , "dead and gone", in any case the explanation given helps us understand why the text is so explicit that God was not going to simply kill mankind but also specifically targeting all animal life on dry land.

When God spared Nineveh He explains to Jonah that a big part of that reason to spare the city. was the ignorance of the humans AND the number of animals that would have perished.

When the angel reproves Balaam he tells the wayward prophet that he would have killed the man and spared the animal if the donkey had not turned aside.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, both of you.

I don't know why you continue to rebel against simple truths, but I'm tired of going around and around with you and not getting anywhere. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I know what I'm talking about, but you are BOUND to resist. We'll just have to wait and ask the Lord Yeshua` when He returns. MAYBE we'll find out the truth then. Until then, shalom (peace) to both of you.