When the blessings don't come

[PlanetChee]

13 hours ago, OneLight said:

Seems like every time I question what you say, or have a misunderstanding from what you write, you turn it around on me in false accusations of my reasons why I reply.  Ulterior Motives?  Seriously?  If you cannot explain yourself better, that is not my fault.  As for me questioning what you post, when I see anyone post something I have a question about, I will reply.  You are no different.  I hope you realize this is what everyone does on a discussion forum.

No, actually how you approach my posts is not how it is done by everyone on a forum. I've been on forums for awhile. I know how to speak and write English and I am very adept at sharing my thoughts precisely and clearly so that those with interest in reading my thoughts and opinions may read and respond if they wish. 

You however take issue with most everything I say when you choose to address what I've said. You turn it around in your mind and then ask me to clarify the goulash your imagination has conjured in itself from what you think you saw in my post. And what you arrive at in that process is accusatory. And when you reply you reply in a manner that expects me to defend what you've created out of your own imagination. 

Then you turn all that that you've done around and play victim when I make mention of your tactic and somehow conjure an excuse to blame me for your being on the defensive. And then you make it appear as if I'm hiding something. As when you said in the satan thread, "I've exposed it." You exposed nothing but your own tactics. 

Since you've made this arrive at this point that's my final word about all of it. I don't play those kind of games and quite frankly I'd hoped they would cease on your end. If you can't read me as I write and comprehend what I say directly without your own twisted spin that makes what I write cause you to be confrontational as you question again and again my faith, stop talking to me. As I shall stop reading you. Because if I were to question someones faith here as often and frequently through innuendo or stark accusation,  as you have me, I venture to say I'd be warned. Blocked from the thread. Or banned by now. 

Thank you. That is all. 

 

[Behold]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

 

`...you should also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and TO WORK WITH YOUR HANDS, as we commended you, that you may walk properly towards those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.`(Eph. 4: 11 & 12)

It doesn`t seem that Paul thought working for a living was `having to worry about a paycheck, and wasting time this way,` as you said.

 

 

 

 

Marilyn,

 

I gave you a context regarding "having to worry about a paycheck".....did you read carefully?

I was explaining that foreign missionaries should be supported by their local church, so that they can do the MISSIONARY WORK, full time, .,,,instead of wasting the Lord's time trying to find a way to eat in some foreign Land.  

Thats was i was explaining.

See, the 5-fold ministry, IS work, (is a real job) and ministers are to be recompensed $$$$$ directly from the work of the ministry.....They are not supposed to be preaching on Sunday and selling used cars, M-F.   Certainly you can understand this, or no?

"part time Preacher"  , "part time evangelist", "part time apostle", "part time pastor".......this does not exist in the NT., and it should not exist in the real world if a person is really "called", as that calling is not part time, Marilyn.

You NT tells you that the Christian 5-fold ministry workers, full time, in the ministry are to be PAID from the ministry, ...some even "double", as this work is the most important work there is..... as no secular "job" is more important then winning souls and feeding the sheep.

A brain surgeon might save a young child's life, but a person who through witnessing or preaching is plucked from hell and ends up in Heaven.......the worker who did THAT for them has done the really important work.....tho the brain surgeon is certainly important.

Even Jesus didnt work a "job" ... once He began His ministry......or did you not know this?.......He actually only walked around preaching, teaching, healing, while his supporters gave of their economic means to support HIM while He did the REAL work. (Judas kept the money for the group).

Paul had churches that he PLANTED that gave him money, (supported him)  so that he could roam around, similar to Jesus, doing the REAL  GOSPEL work.....tho Paul was also a "tentmaker"....that's true.......It was both.......but mostly he lived off the support of the sheep, as this is how God set it up for "called" 5-fold  ministers.

Also, Some of what ive accomplished in my life was probably "led of the Lord", but a good deal of it was just the fact of knowing that "Life is short and soon will pass, Only whats done for Christ will last"......so, i know what to do, and i dont need to wait for Jesus to send me a handwritten note to get me started.

See, Many Christians wait their lives away waiting .......for nothing......when they could be doing the "Lord's work"., as this really does not require a sign, it only requires willingness to DO SOMETHING.

 

B

Edited June 7, 2017 by Behold

[warrior12]

Romans 8King James Version (KJV)

¹⁶ The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

¹⁷ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

¹⁸ For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

 

If we are reading our Bible and meditating on the word and seeking the Lords will for our time here on this earth, then we would not blame the men and organisation that preaches what the OP outlined, but will compare scripture with what they preach and come to a conclusion, it would include the following as Mr. Chambers penned it below.

If you are going to be used by God, He will take you through a number of experiences that are not meant for you personally at all. They are designed to make you useful in His hands, and to enable you to understand what takes place in the lives of others. Because of this process, you will never be surprised by what comes your way. You say, “Oh, I can’t deal with that person.” Why can’t you? God gave you sufficient opportunities to learn from Him about that problem; but you turned away, not heeding the lesson, because it seemed foolish to spend your time that way.

The sufferings of Christ were not those of ordinary people. He suffered “according to the will of God” (1 Peter 4:19), having a different point of view of suffering from ours. It is only through our relationship with Jesus Christ that we can understand what God is after in His dealings with us. When it comes to suffering, it is part of our Christian culture to want to know God’s purpose beforehand. In the history of the Christian church, the tendency has been to avoid being identified with the sufferings of Jesus Christ. People have sought to carry out God’s orders through a shortcut of their own. God’s way is always the way of suffering— the way of the “long road home.”

Are we partakers of Christ’s sufferings? Are we prepared for God to stamp out our personal ambitions? Are we prepared for God to destroy our individual decisions by supernaturally transforming them? It will mean not knowing why God is taking us that way, because knowing would make us spiritually proud. We never realize at the time what God is putting us through— we go through it more or less without understanding. Then suddenly we come to a place of enlightenment, and realize— “God has strengthened me and I didn’t even know it!”

 

WISDOM FROM OSWALD CHAMBERS

The Bible does not thrill; the Bible nourishes. Give time to the reading of the Bible and the recreating effect is as real as that of fresh air physically.  Disciples Indeed, 387 R

Edited June 7, 2017 by warrior12

[Marilyn C]

15 hours ago, warrior12 said:

Romans 8King James Version (KJV)

¹⁶ The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

¹⁷ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

¹⁸ For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

 

If we are reading our Bible and meditating on the word and seeking the Lords will for our time here on this earth, then we would not blame the men and organisation that preaches what the OP outlined, but will compare scripture with what they preach and come to a conclusion, it would include the following as Mr. Chambers penned it below.

If you are going to be used by God, He will take you through a number of experiences that are not meant for you personally at all. They are designed to make you useful in His hands, and to enable you to understand what takes place in the lives of others. Because of this process, you will never be surprised by what comes your way. You say, “Oh, I can’t deal with that person.” Why can’t you? God gave you sufficient opportunities to learn from Him about that problem; but you turned away, not heeding the lesson, because it seemed foolish to spend your time that way.

The sufferings of Christ were not those of ordinary people. He suffered “according to the will of God” (1 Peter 4:19), having a different point of view of suffering from ours. It is only through our relationship with Jesus Christ that we can understand what God is after in His dealings with us. When it comes to suffering, it is part of our Christian culture to want to know God’s purpose beforehand. In the history of the Christian church, the tendency has been to avoid being identified with the sufferings of Jesus Christ. People have sought to carry out God’s orders through a shortcut of their own. God’s way is always the way of suffering— the way of the “long road home.”

Are we partakers of Christ’s sufferings? Are we prepared for God to stamp out our personal ambitions? Are we prepared for God to destroy our individual decisions by supernaturally transforming them? It will mean not knowing why God is taking us that way, because knowing would make us spiritually proud. We never realize at the time what God is putting us through— we go through it more or less without understanding. Then suddenly we come to a place of enlightenment, and realize— “God has strengthened me and I didn’t even know it!”

 

WISDOM FROM OSWALD CHAMBERS

The Bible does not thrill; the Bible nourishes. Give time to the reading of the Bible and the recreating effect is as real as that of fresh air physically.  Disciples Indeed, 387 R

Hi warrior12,

That is such an encouragement to keep going and persevere. I also do appreciate and read often Oswald Chamber`s writings.

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

16 hours ago, Behold said:

Marilyn,

 

I gave you a context regarding "having to worry about a paycheck".....did you read carefully?

I was explaining that foreign missionaries should be supported by their local church, so that they can do the MISSIONARY WORK, full time, .,,,instead of wasting the Lord's time trying to find a way to eat in some foreign Land.  

Thats was i was explaining.

See, the 5-fold ministry, IS work, (is a real job) and ministers are to be recompensed $$$$$ directly from the work of the ministry.....They are not supposed to be preaching on Sunday and selling used cars, M-F.   Certainly you can understand this, or no?

"part time Preacher"  , "part time evangelist", "part time apostle", "part time pastor".......this does not exist in the NT., and it should not exist in the real world if a person is really "called", as that calling is not part time, Marilyn.

You NT tells you that the Christian 5-fold ministry workers, full time, in the ministry are to be PAID from the ministry, ...some even "double", as this work is the most important work there is..... as no secular "job" is more important then winning souls and feeding the sheep.

Hi Behold,

This is an interesting discussion and I am appreciating talking to you as I see you have a heart for our Lord and His work. So perhaps we can look further  into that. Now as we know the 5 fold ministries of the ascended Lord, (5 aspects of Christ) these are given to equip the Body for the work of the ministry.

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ.`(Eph. 4: 11 & 12)

So how does that happen? We are shown this equipping by the Apostles, Paul, Silvanus and Timothy.

`Paul, Silvanus and Timothy, to the church, (called out ones) of Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ;........For you yourselves know brethren, that our coming to you was not in vain. But even after we had suffered before and were spitefully treated at Philippi, as you know, we were bold in our God to speak to you the gospel of God in much conflict.

For our exhortation did not come from deceit or uncleanness, nor was it in guile. But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts. For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, nor a cloak for covetousness - God is witness. Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ.

But we were gentle among you, just as a nursing mother cherishes her own children. So, affectionately longing for you, we were pleased to impart to you not only the gospel of God, but also our own lives, because you had become dear to us.

For you remember, brethren, our labour and toil; for labouring night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed the gospel of God. You are our witnesses, and God also, how devoutly and justly and blamelessly we behaved ourselves among you who believe; as you know how we exhorted, and comforted and charged everyone of you, as a father does his own children, that you would live a life worthy of God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory. `(Phil. 1: 1,  2: 1 - 12)

Here then is a clear picture of these ascension ministries working `with their hands` toiling amongst the believers whilst ministering the good news. Here then is relationship of a very personal kind, (the kind our Lord had with His disciples).

This is poles apart from the `lecture type` presentation method we see in man`s organisations, that produce their kind - more lecture types. This is not scriptural. Lecturing is not equipping. Discipling, mentoring is up close and personal in everyday life and applicable to the actual person, for it generates the character of Christ.

What I am pointing out is the unbalanced focus and undue emphasis in man`s organisations of - the upfront person, his importance, his position, his ministry, whereas the Lord would have us understand the every , yes every believer in the Body of Christ contributes to the growth and upbuilding of the Lord`s body.

`Let no one defraud you of your reward.....and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase which is from God.`(Col. 2: 18 & 19)

`Christ - from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.`(Eph. 4: 16)

I believe it is quite clear that every believer is in the Body of Christ doing its share whether labouring in the fields and demonstrating Christ`s life, or the mother with children, bringing them up in the Lord etc, everyday life is the `battle ground ` where the believer shows Christ`s life. There is no religious/secular divide in a believer`s life. That is a false idea to separate the clergy, etc from the believers. Paul and the other Apostles clearly showed that they worked with the believers in their daily toil and along side shared of the good news.

regards, Marilyn.

[Behold]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

""as a nursing mother cherishes her own children. So, affectionately longing for you, we were pleased to impart to you not only the gospel of God, but also our own lives, because you had become dear to us.

For you remember, brethren, our labour and toil; for labouring night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed the gospel of God.  you into His own kingdom and glory. `(Phil. 1: 1,  2: 1 - 12)

Here then is a clear picture of these ascension ministries working `with their hands` toiling amongst the believers whilst ministering the good news. Here then is relationship of a very personal kind, (the kind our Lord had with His disciples).

This is poles apart from the `lecture type` presentation method we see in man`s organisations, that produce their kind - more lecture types. This is not scriptural. Lecturing is not equipping. Discipling, mentoring is up close and personal in everyday life and applicable to the actual person, for it generates the character of Christ.

 

 

Good point.

If i might be direct...

The reality is, "church" as we know it in our lifetime, with a shiny  building, a fancy alter, a high resolution praise group,  and a charming and manicured dictator behind a pulpit who is having to be one to try to keep all the other dictators down in the congregation, has very little to do with the type Christianity that Jesus > Paul = was trying to create us to be.

The fact is, God started it, and man ran with it, and you see the end result of everything that man touches....it becomes self centered self serving, "look at me"....."me, me, me, me, me,"""""""""..............>.

I have a few hero's of the faith, that are not found in the NT.

One is Francis of Assisi, and one is Rich Mullens the Contemporary Christian "singer" who died in '97.

The reason i admire them, (is not because of their theology, as im not a Catholic,), but its because i recognize that to truly be a disciple of Christ, you have to be willing to leave it all behind, and in fact, you would prefer to do so.

Every true believer, saved a few years, grounded in correct NT theology, should be ready to preach, pray, and die, ....24/7.

A true Disciple, in my view, can put their Cell, their Cable, their Laptop, their job, their position,  their home,  their family, and their personal ambition, = quickly and instantly aside if they feel the Lord just told them to "GO".

Early Christian's didnt live by 401-Ks or Saving's accounts, or 5 year plans, or "planning for retirement", as they didn't retire......they generally died doing the Lord's work.

Everyone here should wear out "Fox's Book of Martyr's", and find out what its really costs to be all you can be for Jesus The Christ.

Salvation Cost Jesus His LIFE....and Discipleship, will cost you YOURS.

My personal IQ regarding what it means to be a disciple, is to be sold out.......Is to wake up and you say...."Good morning Lord, what do you want me to do today"....and when you lay your head on the pillow or ground at night, the last thing you say is "Goodnight, Lord, Goodnight Father God".

And so, if this was easy, we'd all be doing it.....but, nevertheless, that is how i feel about Christian "service".

 

Thx for the conversation,

 

 

B

Edited June 8, 2017 by Behold

[simplejeff]

12 minutes ago, Behold said:

..they generally died doing the Lord's work.

Amein,  and as soon as they were immersed in Jesus' Name,  they considered their lives already 'forfeit' - sacrificed, buried, crucified with Christ with no fear of future pain suffering and death which was actually expected....

14 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

they worked with the believers in their daily toil

Just this morning ( a few hours ago in prayer considering what 'believers' live like)

envisioning every time YHWH'S people lived right,  

they were always ready without hesitation ,  continually,  daily,   helping one another making sure everyone's needs were met - food and clothes and shelter,  AND not being alone, not being neglected,  not abandoned at all,

but all together as one body united in JESUS daily,  all day,  every day, in everything they do/did ....

14 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.`(Eph. 4: 16)

Just like our elbows, knees,  hands,  eyes, ears and nose

we don't go anywhere without them !!!   Don't isolate them , abandon them, or separate them from the rest of our body,

every part always fulfilling its purpose in place in the body,  and relying / staying part of/ the whole body as YHWH designed us ...

(not seen in many locations on earth - but only in a few,  THANK GOD ! FOR THE FEW ! ) (a daily, never ending blessing ---- even when one of the body is in prison/ suffering/ they are still NOURISHED by the LIFE OF JESUS in HIS BODY on earth,  the brethren/ supply of life as YHWH'S WORD describes ......

but even more 'visible' the body in life, in action, in communities where true believers love one another and watch out for the needs of others DAILY,  meeting the needs of others BEFORE their own -

working - working - working - honest work ,  why ?  as it is written "TO MEET THE NEEDS OF OTHERS" ....

likewise(never taught in  "churches")  if retired or having an entitlement/ income/ insurance - MEETING THE NEEDS OF OTHERS daily, as soon as they are seen....  realized.... as YHWH accomplishes ....

[PlanetChee]

I would think at the core of the WoF or Prosperity Gospel teaching that there is scripture to sustain it. And God's blessings reported in his word that sustains the belief that God would have us prosper and not perish for want.

For instance.  Mark 11:23-24  Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

1 Chronicles 4:10 Jabez called upon the God of Israel, saying, “Oh that you would bless me and enlarge my border, and that your hand might be with me, and that you would keep me from harm so that it might not bring me pain!” And God granted what he asked.

 

Proverbs 3:9-10 Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce; then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine.

Proverbs 10:22 The blessing of the Lord makes rich, and he adds no sorrow with it.

Philippians 4:19 And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.

Mark 11:23 Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him.

[OneLight]

If all the WoF taught was from scripture, there would no argument being made about their theology.  The problem is when they teach that a persons amount of faith is the key to all they want, and if they had enough faith, all their desires would be theirs, which is not supported by scripture.  God promises He will provide our needs, not our wants.  There is a very large difference between the two sometimes.

[PlanetChee]

Matthew 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”