ERRORS of the POST-TRIB. view.

[ENOCH2010]

Where is the faith of those in the pre-trib camp? Do you not think the Lord can protect you during the tribulation? Why does it even matter, if I die today, I go to be with the Lord, if I die during the tribulation I go to be with the Lord, if I live through the tribulation, I go to be with the Lord. What are you all so afraid of?!!!!!!

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Where is the faith of those in the pre-trib camp? Do you not think the Lord can protect you during the tribulation? Why does it even matter, if I die today, I go to be with the Lord, if I die during the tribulation I go to be with the Lord, if I live through the tribulation, I go to be with the Lord. What are you all so afraid of?!!!!!!

Hi Enoch2010,

Speaking of `faith,` faith has to do with what you believe God has said in His word. If the Lord has said we go through the tribulation, then that is what we would believe. However.....we believe that the Lord is returning for His Body to take them to the third heaven where together they will pass judgment upon the world system and fallen angels.

`Do you not know that the saints will judge the world (system)? ....Do you not know that we shall judge angels? ` (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

How much better to believe what the Lord has actually said and not get emotive about going thr the trib. How much better to know that we shall be putting an end to the horror, torture, cruelty, poverty etc etc of this age.

regards,  Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

` And He will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other,`(Matt. 24: 31)

Some people think that this is the rapture, the catching away of the Body of Christ. God, however, is using pictorial language, `one end of heaven to the other`, (as there is no end of heaven) to reveal the ingathering of the people of Israel. Many of them have scattered to the four corners of the earth, (as it were) and the angels will be sent to gather them together.

In the visible realm we read of how the nations will bring them to Jerusalem.

`Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the Lord out of all the nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to my holy mountain Jerusalem: says the Lord.`(Isa. 66: 20)

Note when the believers in the Body of Christ are caught away it will not be with the help of angels. Let`s see what happens to the Body of Christ.

We know that we shall be changed in a twinkling of an eye, to immortal & incorruptible by the power of God, then defying gravity we shall be caught up. What power defies gravity? It will be the power of Christ`s love that will draw us to Himself.   

Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

` And He will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other,`(Matt. 24: 31)

Some people think that this is the rapture, the catching away of the Body of Christ. God, however, is using pictorial language, `one end of heaven to the other`, (as there is no end of heaven) to reveal the ingathering of the people of Israel. Many of them have scattered to the four corners of the earth, (as it were) and the angels will be sent to gather them together.

In the visible realm we read of how the nations will bring them to Jerusalem.

`Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the Lord out of all the nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to my holy mountain Jerusalem: says the Lord.`(Isa. 66: 20)

Note when the believers in the Body of Christ are caught away it will not be with the help of angels. Let`s see what happens to the Body of Christ.

We know that we shall be changed in a twinkling of an eye, to immortal & incorruptible by the power of God, then defying gravity we shall be caught up. What power defies gravity? It will be the power of Christ`s love that will draw us to Himself.   

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

It's NOT "pictoral language." Think VERTICALLY from "one end of heaven to the other." Here's how Mark puts it:

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

The east/west and north/south directions are already covered in the "four winds"; the rest is about the down/up direction.

I should have added that this would make even more sense IF you could accept that "heaven" (Greek: ouranos = the "sky") is talking about earth's atmosphere.

NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as NT:3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity):
KJV - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Edited June 18, 2017 by Retrobyter

[wingnut-]

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Note when the believers in the Body of Christ are caught away it will not be with the help of angels.

 

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

 

Matthew 13:37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Matthew 13:37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

Shalom, wingnut-.

Timing is everything. Matthew 13 contains parables ABOUT THE KINGDOM. That's important to note because, in saying that, if you recognize the Kingdom coming when the King returns, then this occurs at the END of the Millennium. If you'll read just a little farther, you'll find...

Matthew 13:40-43
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (Greek: aioonos = "age").
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire (the GWTJ): there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

This corresponds to Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28: (Bear in mind that Paul's focus in 1 Cor. 15 is the Resurrection.)

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order:  (0) Christ the firstfruits; afterward (1) they that are Christ's at his coming.
24  (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

So, in speaking of three Resurrections, that of the Messiah, that of those who belong to the Messiah when He returns, and that of the rest who are resurrected after the Millennium, he comments on the nature of the Messiah's Kingdom: He will be subduing all of His enemies throughout the Millennium, putting down all rule and all authority and power, FINISHING with the destruction of death.

At the end of the Millennium, the Messiah shall also Himself be subject to God His Father, and He delivers up the Kingdom to God the Father, i.e., "the Kingdom of their Father."

[wingnut-]

4 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, wingnut-.

Timing is everything. Matthew 13 contains parables ABOUT THE KINGDOM. That's important to note because, in saying that, if you recognize the Kingdom coming when the King returns, then this occurs at the END of the Millennium. If you'll read just a little farther, you'll find...

Matthew 13:40-43
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (Greek: aioonos = "age").
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire (the GWTJ): there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

This corresponds to Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28: (Bear in mind that Paul's focus in 1 Cor. 15 is the Resurrection.)

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order:  (0) Christ the firstfruits; afterward (1) they that are Christ's at his coming.
24  (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

So, in speaking of three Resurrections, that of the Messiah, that of those who belong to the Messiah when He returns, and that of the rest who are resurrected after the Millennium, he comments on the nature of the Messiah's Kingdom: He will be subduing all of His enemies throughout the Millennium, putting down all rule and all authority and power, FINISHING with the destruction of death.

At the end of the Millennium, the Messiah shall also Himself be subject to God His Father, and He delivers up the Kingdom to God the Father, i.e., "the Kingdom of their Father."

 

Excellent point retro.

[HAZARD]

Luke 21:36, Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

To escape what things? The things which will occur during the tribulation.

[Retrobyter]

53 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

Luke 21:36, Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

To escape what things? The things which will occur during the tribulation.

Shalom, HAZARD and all.

I know you guys (and gals) don't want to hear it, but if you would just CONSIDER the possibility, it makes complete sense: The tribulation is and has been almost 2000 years long. It's not the same as the 70th Seven ("Week") of Daniel 9:24-27. Now watch what happens:

First, there's no way to be raptured before it starts since it's started already!

Second, because we're already IN the tribulation, we don't need to worry about questions like that above.

Third, because the tribulation is focused on the children of Israel, particularly the Jews (children of Judah or Y'hudah), it explains all the sufferings they (and we who are Gentile believers, as well) have gone through for those 2,000 years - the persecutions of Rome, the Inquisitions, the Pogroms, the Crusades, the banishments from many countries in Europe, the confiscation of property, the disdain and anti-Semitism in Europe, the Holocaust, and all the various terrorist attacks they've suffered recently. They and their supporters are BOTH suffering from terrorism today!

The Greek word for "tribulation" is "thlipsis."

NT:2347 thlipsis (thlip'-sis); from NT:2346; pressure (literally or figuratively):
KJV - afflicted (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

NT:2346 thliboo (thlee'-bo); akin to the base of NT:5147; to crowd (literally or figuratively):
KJV - afflict, narrow, throng, suffer tribulation, trouble.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

We are told in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:19-22
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
KJV

The other two synoptic Gospels say this:

Mark 13:17-20
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
KJV

Luke 21:23-24
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
KJV

Thus, the shortening of the days is not that the time span itself is shortened but rather that the number of days of tribulation are shortened within the time span! Each span of pressure is limited. Thus, we can give names to the various persecutions, such as "the Holocaust," and there are times of reprieve between spans of pressure for the elect or chosen ones to have some "breathing room."

Edited June 18, 2017 by Retrobyter
finish the post; accidentally posted.

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

It's NOT "pictoral language." Think VERTICALLY from "one end of heaven to the other." Here's how Mark puts it:

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

The east/west and north/south directions are already covered in the "four winds"; the rest is about the down/up direction.

I should have added that this would make even more sense IF you could accept that "heaven" (Greek: ouranos = the "sky") is talking about earth's atmosphere.

NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as NT:3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity):
KJV - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Hi Retro,

I do agree that in this context that the word heaven is referring to the atmospheric heavens. No one is in the atmospheric heavens, but as we say `scattered to the four winds.` Isaiah clearly shows that ingathering from all the nations, as I said before. (Isa. 66: 20)

Marilyn.