JESUS IS GOD

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

What are saying that this is not an apostolic teaching. 

Then why are you using their scriptures. 

Whose point of view are you representing. 

I am saying that the Trinity is not something we can understand.  The Bible demonstrates the Trinity, but does not explain the nuts and bolts of it.  We simply believe what the Bible presents to us.  There are a lot of things about God I don't understand, but I believe the Bible because God doesn't lie.

[Your closest friendnt]

38 minutes ago, Yowm said:

 

The 'thanks' was quite self explanatory.

 The thanks is one thing, 

But the context in the scripture, 

What does it say, about the Angels.  

Can not justifie a post apostolic doctrinal infuence supervize by the first Christian Roman Emperor. 

Who loved the Bishops of his time, the founders of many things not taught by the disciples . 

 

[fixerupper]

5 hours ago, NOONE7 said:

Jesus stated the Father is greater then Him.  But could this not be for just that time with regards to his 'human' nature and the position He had as a human.  

I don't think it maters exactly what's implied when Jesus said the Father is greater.  I do know that indicates they're not co-equal. Being that Jesus didn't know the day or hour of his return, that means he, 'as God', either forgot the day or hour, or he's not fully God and he never knew.
Luke pretty much says it right out straight that the holy spirit is the power of God Almighty.  I say that power comes from the seven spirits of God....
Luke 1:35  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Jesus is called the son of God and so are we.  

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Jesus stated the Father is greater but if it was a statement in regards to overall power/ability/omnipotence then yeah...his human nature is what is probably being referenced and Him being a servant for the Father and for all even dying on the cross.

Jesus didn't lose his divine nature, he lowered himself from that abode and a glorified body to the human nature.  He lost his position, not his power.  Jesus isn't God because he too often regarded his Father as superior to him.  That doesn't take anything away from Jesus since Jesus isn't fully God anyway.

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Yet the statement of the Son with being ONE with the Father.  Makes him equal to what is greater. But more on the humbleness of the Son and Father relationship.

The statement of being ONE means they are of the same mind and purpose....they think the same.  If they were the same in power and knowledge, Jesus wouldn't have said he doesn't know the day or hour of his return, or that the Father is greater.

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Or how about this line of reasoning.  Jesus has been given all authority.

Matthew 28:18  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Does that mean Jesus is all powerful equal to God? 
This verse appears to imply that Jesus is all powerful but it doesn’t.  What Jesus is saying is that every kind of power is available to him.  I say those powers come from God through the seven Spirits of God. If someone were to ask me who is the Holy Spirit I would say He is the Seven Spirits of God which emanates from Jesus Himself. 

The word all is probably the most misunderstood and mistranslated word in the bible. When the word all is used without the article, it means, "every kind or every variety." I don't think God has always been understood as having just ONE power, but as One who has many powers.

Luke pretty much says it right out straight that the holy spirit is the power of God Almighty...

Luke 1:35  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Since your focus is on power, it states all power in heaven and in earth.

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Or how about this. 

John 5:22

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

On that day the Father judges no person but committed all judgement unto the Son.
The Father has given all to the Son and even Judgement that the Father will not do.  By this line of reasoning who is greater if Jesus has this and the Father does not?

 

Trinitarians will tell you that John 5:22 indicates Jesus has the same authority as God.  That's simply not true.  The verse implies that God DELEGATED the authority to judge.  The context of the passage is the resurrrection and even maybe the rapture.... For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
He gave that authority to the son because he paid the ransom for our sins and redemed us. 

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Or how about this since you are using the word greater.  Jesus used it another time with the miraculous.

John 14:12

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

 

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If a believer on the LORD does a greater work then the ones Jesus did.  Does that mean we our greater? I would think not.

Don't take that out of context.  I have yet to see any believer do greater works.  But no, that doesn't imply that we are greater.

[Guest]

 

But the natural [unbelieving] man does not accept the things [the teachings and revelations] of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness [absurd and illogical] to him; and he is incapable of understanding them, because they are spiritually discerned and appreciated, [and he is unqualified to judge spiritual matters].

Some people have made up a version of christ for themselves . This is eternal suicide.  

[Guest]

[and he is unqualified to judge spiritual matters].

[fixerupper]

4 minutes ago, Blueyedjewel said:

 

But the natural [unbelieving] man does not accept the things [the teachings and revelations] of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness [absurd and illogical] to him; and he is incapable of understanding them, because they are spiritually discerned and appreciated, [and he is unqualified to judge spiritual matters].

Some people have made up a version of christ for themselves . This is eternal suicide.  

No matter how hard you try, those blue eyed jewels won't send me to hell.  The natural man doesn't believe in the cross, I do.  The narural man doesn't believe in the resurrection, I do.  The natural man doesn't see God in NATURE, I do.

You've been misled.  You don't know the difference between damnable and UN-damnable heresy.  I reject the false doctrine of the trinity, and I reject you for your judgmentalism.  

[Guest shiloh357]

14 hours ago, fixerupper said:

I don't think it maters exactly what's implied when Jesus said the Father is greater.  I do know that indicates they're not co-equal. Being that Jesus didn't know the day or hour of his return, that means he, 'as God', either forgot the day or hour, or he's not fully God and he never knew.
Luke pretty much says it right out straight that the holy spirit is the power of God Almighty.

 

What you're failing to understand that is that Jesus, in His humanity, temporarily gave up divine prerogatives.   Jesus was still fully God.  His submission to the Father didn't make Jesus any less God than He was when He preexisted the creation of the world.   In His humanity, during His earthly ministry, Jesus didn't know the day, nor the hour of His return.   But Jesus' human limitations didn't diminish His deity.   When Jesus came to earth, He did not divest Himself of anything that made him God.

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Luke pretty much says it right out straight that the holy spirit is the power of God Almighty.  I say that power comes from the seven spirits of God....

The seven spirits of God are not seven individual spirits; rather, they are seven aspects of the Person of the Holy Spirit.

 

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Luke 1:35  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Jesus is called the son of God and so are we.  

Except that the New Testament, particularly the book of John, is very careful to make a distinction in the Greek between us as sons of God and Jesus as "THE Son of God."   So to use that term to derive equality between us and Jesus doesn't hold up if one is a careful student of Scripture.

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Jesus didn't lose his divine nature, he lowered himself from that abode and a glorified body to the human nature.  He lost his position, not his power.

That is not what the Bible says.   Phil. 2:5-11 says that Jesus voluntarily made himself a servant, that he voluntarily divested himself of divine prerogatives, that he voluntarily became obedient to death on the cross.    So it isn't the case that he "lost" anything.   Jesus didn't "lose" a position.   He simply and willingly submitted Himself to the sovereign will of the Father for the purposes of redemption.   That submission is no longer the case, though.   That ended with the resurrection and now Jesus Has been super exalted to the highest place and has the Name that is above all names and Jesus is Lord (Adonai/YHVH) to the glory of God the Father.   YHVH is the Name of God and that is the Name that is above all Names and as God it is Jesus' divine Name, as well.

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Jesus isn't God because he too often regarded his Father as superior to him.  That doesn't take anything away from Jesus since Jesus isn't fully God anyway.

Jesus said that in His humanity and in His humanity the Father had authority over Him, you are confused about the interplay between Jesus' humanity and His deity while on earth.   Jesus operates in the fullness of His deity because Jesus was and  is still fully God.

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Matthew 28:18  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Does that mean Jesus is all powerful equal to God? 

 

Yes, that is exactly what it means. 

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This verse appears to imply that Jesus is all powerful but it doesn’t.  What Jesus is saying is that every kind of power is available to him.  I say those powers come from God through the seven Spirits of God. If someone were to ask me who is the Holy Spirit I would say He is the Seven Spirits of God which emanates from Jesus Himself. 

And you would be wrong due to sloppy exegesis of God's word.  Jesus has all authority and power because the Bible says that God has exalted to the highest place and He is Lord/YHVH to the glory of God the Father.   Jesus' power comes from His deity, the fact that He is fully God.

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The word all is probably the most misunderstood and mistranslated word in the bible. When the word all is used without the article, it means, "every kind or every variety." I don't think God has always been understood as having just ONE power, but as One who has many powers.

That is wrong.  In this context and in this passage "all" means, "whole."  Divine authority given to Him by God which is never partial in nature.   One cannot be partially God or have only partial divine authority.  Furthermore, it is accompanied by modifers.  All authority  is given to Jesus in Heaven and on earth.   That modifies the word "all"  to refer to the scope of His authority, exists in both heaven and earth.   This is a hebraic manner of expression known as a merism and it uses polarity to express totality.    "Heaven and earth" modify all to mean that His authority is whole and covers all of heaven and all of earth.   There is no greater or more expansive authority than what Jesus has been granted.
 

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Luke pretty much says it right out straight that the holy spirit is the power of God Almighty...

Luke 1:35  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Since your focus is on power, it states all power in heaven and in earth.

 

No, Luke is not saying that the Holy Spirit is the power of God.   He is saying that as a consequence of the Holy Spirit coming upon Mary, the power of the  Highest will overshadow her and the Holy Spirit will cause her to conceive.     Your attempt to diminish the personhood of the Holy Spirit is just more false teaching a sloppy handling of Scripture.

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Trinitarians will tell you that John 5:22 indicates Jesus has the same authority as God.  That's simply not true.  The verse implies that God DELEGATED the authority to judge.  The context of the passage is the resurrrection and even maybe the rapture.... For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
He gave that authority to the son because he paid the ransom for our sins and redemed us. 

John 5:22 needs to be read with what comes before and after it:

For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.  (Joh 5:21-23)

Jesus will have the power to give eternal life to those that HE wills.  Jesus will be the judge of all mankind; that is the role He plays in the Godhead.  That doesn't make Him lesser in deity in the Godhead.   Jesus is to be honored in the same manner that the Father is honored.   Those who do not honor Jesus as God,  dishonor the Father.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

14 hours ago, fixerupper said:

No matter how hard you try, those blue eyed jewels won't send me to hell. 

This rejection of Jesus' deity just might, though.   If anyone is worshiping a different Jesus than the one who is God, as revealed in Scripture, they are worshiping an idol.

[fixerupper]

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What you're failing to understand that is that Jesus, in His humanity, temporarily gave up divine prerogatives.   Jesus was still fully God.  His submission to the Father didn't make Jesus any less God than He was when He preexisted the creation of the world.   In His humanity, during His earthly ministry, Jesus didn't know the day, nor the hour of His return.   But Jesus' human limitations didn't diminish His deity.   When Jesus came to earth, He did not divest Himself of anything that made him God.

Is that why it says Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and tomorow?  And I keep telling you guys...
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
The incarnation must have caused Jesus to have some sort of memory lapse.  IF he IS God as you suggest, that means he KNEW the day or hour while he was God in heaven.  How do you explain that?

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The seven spirits of God are not seven individual spirits; rather, they are seven aspects of the Person of the Holy Spirit.

So there are 7 different spirits to ONE person/spirit???  The holy spirit.  I agree the seven spirits are the holy spirit.  But they are 7 spirits just like the text says. That makes 9 total.  Jesus= 1, God = 1, Holy spirit = 7.  Total 9.  9 spirits in Jesus, and nine spirits in God.

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Except that the New Testament, particularly the book of John, is very careful to make a distinction in the Greek between us as sons of God and Jesus as "THE Son of God."   So to use that term to derive equality between us and Jesus doesn't hold up if one is a careful student of Scripture.

I didn't use that to show any kind of equality.  You guys are the ones that do that!  

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That is not what the Bible says.   Phil. 2:5-11 says that Jesus voluntarily made himself a servant, that he voluntarily divested himself of divine prerogatives, that he voluntarily became obedient to death on the cross.    So it isn't the case that he "lost" anything.   Jesus didn't "lose" a position.   He simply and willingly submitted Himself to the sovereign will of the Father for the purposes of redemption.   That submission is no longer the case, though.   That ended with the resurrection and now Jesus Has been super exalted to the highest place and has the Name that is above all names and Jesus is Lord (Adonai/YHVH) to the glory of God the Father.   YHVH is the Name of God and that is the Name that is above all Names and as God it is Jesus' divine Name, as well.

Jesus didn't lose any powers coming to earth, he certainly did lose his position in heaven.  He went from being in glory and authority, to earth as a servant losing that glory but with the same authority.  Your argument is that Jesus didn't lose power or authority, which I agree with.  He can't lose something he didn't have.  He didn't have the full knowledge or power of the Father.
It really is ironic that you would say Jesus didn't lose anything, yet you claim that Jesus said, "the father is greater" or that he didn't know the day or hour of his return" because he was incarnated.   I suppose you don't see that contradiction.

Mt. 28:18  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

I said,
This verse appears to imply that Jesus is all powerful but it doesn’t.  What Jesus is saying is that every kind of power is available to him.  I say those powers come from God through the seven Spirits of God. If someone were to ask me who is the Holy Spirit I would say He is the Seven Spirits of God which emanates from Jesus Himself. 

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And you would be wrong due to sloppy exegesis of God's word.  Jesus has all authority and power because the Bible says that God has exalted to the highest place and He is Lord/YHVH to the glory of God the Father.   Jesus' power comes from His deity, the fact that He is fully God.

If you think that verse implies Jesus has all authority then it's you who is sloppy.  Click on the Vines entry.  If more Christians would do word studies instead of just firing from the hip they would learn something.

All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

radically means "all." Used without the article it means "every," every kind or variety. 
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3956&t=KJV

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That is wrong.  In this context and in this passage "all" means, "whole."  Divine authority given to Him by God which is never partial in nature.

It's not wrong.  Look at how the word ALL is used.  It's used 7-8 different ways in scripture.  All doesn't mean WHOLE in Mathew 28:18 because the word PAS is used without the article.  IF the word HOLOS were used WITH the article I would agree.  Look at the difference between the two...PAS doesn't mean WHOLE the way HOLOS does....
ALL....PAS..individually
each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3956&t=KJV
ALL.....HOLOS.  all, whole, completely
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3650&t=KJV

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One cannot be partially God or have only partial divine authority.

Who says?  Shiloh357?  We are made in the image of God.  What does that mean?

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Furthermore, it is accompanied by modifers.  

The modifier is missing.  That would be the article.

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All authority is given to Jesus in Heaven and on earth.

I agree.  He didn't lose anything he didn't already have.

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That modifies the word "all"  to refer to the scope of His authority, exists in both heaven and earth. 

That's fabrication at it's worst!  Heaven and earth modify NOTHING with the word ALL.  ALL modify's the words HEAVEN AND EARTH!!

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This is a hebraic manner of expression known as a merism and it uses polarity to express totality.  

I don't believe you.  I've been through this before with people who claim superior knowledge of Greek and Hebrew.  All I've ever found is that they complicate and fabricate things to no end.
 

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"Heaven and earth" modify all to mean that His authority is whole and covers all of heaven and all of earth.   There is no greater or more expansive authority than what Jesus has been granted.

Incorrect.  ALL is an adjective and an adjective MODIFY'S the NOUN!  Jesus said in Mathew 28:18 said that every kind of power that's both in heaven and on earth is available to him.  That's it.  NOT that the fullness of those powers are his.  You're 'word studies' have a trinitarian bias.  I know the meaning of Mathew 28:18 and I accept it.  

Luke 1:35  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

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Since your focus is on power, it states all power in heaven and in earth.

No, it states EVERY KIND of power.  

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Luke is not saying that the Holy Spirit is the power of God.   He is saying that as a consequence of the Holy Spirit coming upon Mary, the power of the Highest will overshadow her and the Holy Spirit will cause her to conceive.     Your attempt to diminish the personhood of the Holy Spirit is just more false teaching a sloppy handling of Scripture.

Let's see.  The power of the Highest overshadows Mary, the Holy Spirit comes upon Mary, but the Holy Spirit isn't the power of the Highest???

"as a consequence of the Holy Spirit coming upon Mary, the power of the Highest will overshadow her and the Holy Spirit will cause her to conceive. "
Denial...It's not just for unbelievers anymore!  

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Those who do not honor Jesus as God, dishonor the Father.

It's the other way around.  You guys try to build Jesus up to equality with the Father, taking away from the Father!

Believing that Jesus is God, “the Holy Spirit” is God, and the Father is God actually demeans the Only True God.  Making God one of three co-equal “persons” takes from Him His exalted position as the Only True God, the Creator of the universe, the Author of the plan of Salvation, the Father of Jesus Christ, and our one God.

Besides robbing God of His exalted position as God supreme, believing that Jesus is God also demeans him.  One cannot appreciate how great Jesus really was until you make an effort to live like he did for even one day.  His courage, mental tenacity, love and great faith are unparalleled in human history.  His true greatness is lost if you believe he is God, for “with God all things are possible.”  Believing Jesus is God also demeans God because Jesus himself said, “my Father is greater than I.”

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/god/47-reasons-why-our-heavenly-father-has-no-equals-or-co-equals

Edited June 27, 2017 by fixerupper

[Your closest friendnt]

Say something on the issue, make your point without using it as a platform to advocate for something else, like Angels, and some strange things you bring into this discussion.