Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

[Swords99]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is very simple: The Holy Spirit came to anoint all believers with power. (See Acts 1) The disciples were born again before the day of Pentecost, when Jesus breathed on them and said "receive..."  People came to God all during the Old Covenant without this aspect of the Holy Spirit. Since He came for the church, it makes sense when the church is taken up, then in the respect that He came, He will go, and things will be just as they were before the day of Pentecost. People can be born again, but they will not receive the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit that came at Pentecost. In other words, He will still be here to indwell any believers. But He will NOT be here with His powerful anointing. That came at Pentecost and will leave with the rapture.

The sad thing is, many believers no nothing or very little about this anointing for power.

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit was not there during the OT?

[fixerupper]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Restrainer is mentioned as one who ALLOWS.....That can only be God via the Holy Spirit. 

You mean one who "lets?"

"Lets" doesn't mean allow.  The "one-DOWN-HAVING" or 'one who lets,' doesn't mean 'allow.'  The KJV translators could have translated this better.

Thayer says, "that which hinders anti-Christ from making his appearance.  "will let" isn't in the interlinear and shouldn't be in the KJV text.

letteth...

o hold back, detain, retain

from going away

to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of)

that which hinders, Antichrist from making his appearance

to check a ship's headway i.e. to hold or head the ship

to hold fast, keep secure, keep firm possession of

to get possession of, take

to possess

 

[fixerupper]

Revelation man,

You're way off.

Quote

 

6 And now ye know WHAT (CHURCH) withholdeth that HE (ANTI-CHRIST) might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only HE ( HOLY SPIRIT) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

Maybe you should have noticed what Paul said,

Spoon feeding, seems to be a common thing around here.

Look at the simple progression of the passage...

V. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, (Prousia) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

V.4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

BEFORE Paul says...

V. 7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

It's either poor exegesis or outright fabrication to say the "church" withholdeth."  The grammar of the text shows that after Paul tells them that the parousia would NOT come 'unless' there comes FIRST an 'apostasy' AND the man of sin revealed, and then describes the man of sin in verse 4,

HE GOES ON TO SAY, "

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."

TO SAY THE CHURCH OR HOLY SPIRIT IS WHAT'S WITHHOLDETH THE MAN OF SIN IS PURE FABRICATION.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Swords99 said:

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit was not there during the OT?

No, of course not. He was here, but usually the only people anointed by the Holy Spirit was the king, the priests, and the prophets.  But it was prophesied:

Joel 2:²⁸ And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

²⁹ And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Acts 1:⁵ For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

⁸ But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 2:2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

² And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

³ And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

⁴ And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

¹⁴ But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

¹⁵ For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

¹⁶ But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

¹⁷ And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

¹⁸ And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Sadly much of the church world either ignores these scriptures, or don't understand them. For example, much of the church world imagines they got this experience when they were born again. yet, if we read in Acts 8 and Acts 19 of people receiving, it is very plain that they were born again first and then after that received this mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit - through the laying on of hands. And Luke was very clear in acts to show that this was the Holy Spirit ON or UPON, and not within as in being born again.  So we have the Holy Spirit WITHIN when we get born again, but we can have the Holy Spirit UPON as the anointing.

So the holy Spirit was sent down (See Rev. 5 as to when) for a specific purpose: to give the believers POWER to witness. I had been born again for years before I knew anything about the baptism in the Holy Spirit, for my church, the Wesleyan church, knew nothing about it. Worse yet, in their ignorance they taught against it.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, fixerupper said:

Revelation man,

You're way off.

Maybe you should have noticed what Paul said,

Spoon feeding, seems to be a common thing around here.

Look at the simple progression of the passage...

V. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, (Prousia) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

V.4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

BEFORE Paul says...

V. 7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

It's either poor exegesis or outright fabrication to say the "church" withholdeth."  The grammar of the text shows that after Paul tells them that the parousia would NOT come 'unless' there comes FIRST an 'apostasy' AND the man of sin revealed, and then describes the man of sin in verse 4,

HE GOES ON TO SAY, "

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."

TO SAY THE CHURCH OR HOLY SPIRIT IS WHAT'S WITHHOLDETH THE MAN OF SIN IS PURE FABRICATION.

Sorry, but your argument here is very weak indeed. It is difficult to teach against the truth of scripture using scripture.

Do you understand verses 6-8 that show the restraining MUST BE pulled away, taken out of the way, removed or becoming out of the midst, BEFORE the man of sin can be revealed?

If you understand this, then PLEASE explain how the man of sin is revealed already in verse 3b.

New International Version
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

If he IS revealed here, at this moment in time, then he was revealed some moment in time before this, and that means the restrainer must have been removed before that. This is a key to understanding this passage.

 

I repent of every writing about "spoon feeding." It was a childish remark. It may well have been truth, but it was childish to write it.

Edited July 4, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, fixerupper said:

You mean one who "lets?"

"Lets" doesn't mean allow.  The "one-DOWN-HAVING" or 'one who lets,' doesn't mean 'allow.'  The KJV translators could have translated this better.

Thayer says, "that which hinders anti-Christ from making his appearance.  "will let" isn't in the interlinear and shouldn't be in the KJV text.

letteth...

o hold back, detain, retain

from going away

to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of)

that which hinders, Antichrist from making his appearance

to check a ship's headway i.e. to hold or head the ship

to hold fast, keep secure, keep firm possession of

to get possession of, take

to possess

 

Restrain  is probably the best English word we can use. But holding back is not bad. Righteousness always holds back evil. Remember, the gates of hell cannot stand up to righteousness.

Edited July 4, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

Just now, Davida said:

THIS is the Post you made is what I was specifically referring as UNBIBLICAL.  - You said Satan holds back the Anti-Christ. No where in the Bible does it say that. You are calling the Restrainer - Satan. IT is THE GOD ALMIGHTY that RESTRAINS SATAN  through the Holy Spirit.  It is the Holy Spirit that is the restrainer holding back evil , holding back the appearance of the Anti-Christ.  

I agree! Well written.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, inchrist said:

No what is a fact is you have less than 1%, less than 0.5% next to zero chance that Paul would of used another meaning for a word that is used 99.9% of the time in scripture to mean exactly what it means.

See thats facts, imaginations are not facts.....please learn the difference

I keep writing, we can't put words into Paul's mouth. All we can do is understand the words He used. For example, "apostasia" is a departing. A slightly different word is used for divorce, and it goes without saying that in a divorce, one of two parties DEPARTS.  Paul may well have stretching his meaning of of a departing to mean the rapture, but I am convinced that was his intention. Why? Because it fits the passage so much better than a falling away.

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, inchrist said:

Became bread or made to be made into bread is still the same meaning, removal would be the opposite of these two meanings. You point is being made very well is it?

A fundamental rule of Greek grammar states that a pronoun, adjective, or substantival phrase must agree in gender and number with its preceding reference. 

For Paul to use the neuter participle (which is a substantival phrase) to designate the Spirit would require him to have already referred to the Spirit. 

But since the Holy Spirit is neither stated nor alluded to in the previous verses, the antecedent reference of the neuter participle can not be the Spirit.

Yes you are violating gteek grammar rules.

You telling me exegesis is not a correct biblical method? 

Let me re-word this 

The [imaginations] we end up with after study must fit [imagenary] with the entire passage

You just told me we dont look at the natural meanings of words.....please can you make your mind up???

Yes we look at every meaning of a word, but we don't invent new meanings into a word......big difference.

Thats because I use sound biblical exegesis techniques with scripture, than imaginations as a technique for scripture interpretation. 

We are worlds apart on scholary approach.

 

And yet, I end up with the intentions of the Author, the Holy Spirit, when He caused Paul to write.  I won't say what it is you end up with. As I have said, words have different meanings. You pick one meaning, I pick another - one that fits the entire passage. the definition we choose of every word in a verse must fit the context of the verse and the context of the passage.  Because a word is used 99% of the time one way, but that was does not fit the context, and the 1% use DOES fit the context, then we pick the meaning that best fits. That is common sense: something sadly lacking in many posts.

For example, "apostasia" may well be used 99% of the time as a departing as in divorce, or departing from faith. But those meanings do not fit the context. Paul's departing here must be the departing of the restrainer that is "taken out of the way" or becoming "out of the midst."

Without question, theories of the end times in other passages can cause one to have preconceptions here as to Paul's real meaning.

Edited July 4, 2017 by iamlamad

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, fixerupper said:

You mean one who "lets?"

"Lets" doesn't mean allow.  The "one-DOWN-HAVING" or 'one who lets,' doesn't mean 'allow.'  The KJV translators could have translated this better.

Thayer says, "that which hinders anti-Christ from making his appearance.  "will let" isn't in the interlinear and shouldn't be in the KJV text.

letteth...

o hold back, detain, retain

from going away

to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of)

that which hinders, Antichrist from making his appearance

to check a ship's headway i.e. to hold or head the ship

to hold fast, keep secure, keep firm possession of

to get possession of, take

to possess

 

You miss the whole point by arguing the same point. I know the Holy Spirit holds him (Anti-Christ) back. Thus when he stops holding him back what does the Holy Spirit do? He ALLOWS HIM to Come Forth.