Demons VS. Fallen Angels

[Neighbor]

Masculine tense is used in a lot of innate objects even. It is a matter of language, grammar,  and  I suppose transliterations too, by the time we get to English.

 And yes there are other theories, some that seem to me to have to contort and twist a lot to reach their  perhaps predesired conclusion, or perhaps the conclusion that just comes about from fact as an author of them sees them. One such  "torqued" presentation is at http://www.israel-a-history-of.com/are-angels-sexless.html It is good I suppose, but seems to have to wist and bend a lot to get there. I might tread it yet again.

So far  in my life I tend to find more that I can receive and trust in R. C.Sproul Jr's presentation.  But since my eternal life does NOT hang in the balance over it I shall not try to enter into endless debate, to do so while maybe interesting might also be vain.

[Swords99]

Just now, Neighbor said:

Masculine tense is used in a lot of innate objects even. It is a matter of language, grammar,  and  I suppose transliterations too, by the time we get to English.

 And yes there are other theories, some that seem to me to have to contort and twist a lot to reach their  perhaps predesired conclusion, or perhaps the conclusion that just comes about from fact as an author of them sees them. One such  "torqued" presentation is at http://www.israel-a-history-of.com/are-angels-sexless.html It is good I suppose, but seems to have to wist and bend a lot to get there. I might tread it yet again.

So far  in my life I tend to find more that I can receive and trust in R. C.Sproul Jr's presentation.  But since my eternal life does NOT hang in the balance over it I shall not try to enter into endless debate, to do so while maybe interesting might also be vain.

Angels are hardly inanimate objects. Look at Michael and Gabriel just to name 2. Whenever angels appear in the Bible they were always  'human' males.

Angels being males however, does not necessarily have to do with sexuality. More likely has to do with authority that they have been given. Certainly they are not deities or else we would have a countless number of gods. They are merely created beings.

[Neighbor]

Interesting to say the least. Thanks for sharing.

[Neighbor]

26 minutes ago, Swords99 said:

Angels are hardly inanimate objects. Look at Michael and Gabriel just to name 2. Whenever angels appear in the Bible they were always  'human' males.

Angels being males however, does not necessarily have to do with sexuality. More likely has to do with authority that they have been given. Certainly they are not deities or else we would have a countless number of gods. They are merely created beings.

And here I had misunderstood, thought this was a thread with a question seeking discussion.

 So angels always appear as human males- didn't know that till now. 

The angel before Baalam was seen by Baalam as being male eh? Okay.  My English text doesn't seem to give me a clue as to that, but okay if you say so. Maybe I missed it while marveling at the LORD speaking through a Donkey.

Guess if He can share His wisdom through a donkey then it can be received from most any source.....

[Swords99]

50 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

And here I had misunderstood, thought this was a thread with a question seeking discussion.

 So angels always appear as human males- didn't know that till now. 

The angel before Baalam was seen by Baalam as being male eh? Okay.  My English text doesn't seem to give me a clue as to that, but okay if you say so. Maybe I missed it while marveling at the LORD speaking through a Donkey.

Guess if He can share His wisdom through a donkey then it can be received from most any source.....

I started this thread because I wanted to know if demons were the same as fallen angels. I have heard arguments for both but am still not sure. The scriptures do not say a whole lot about it.

Somehow the thread drifted to something else which it is prone to do.

[OakWood]

5 hours ago, Swords99 said:

  Every reference to angels in the Scripture is masculine.

Every reference to angels is masculine. Of course it is. That's why scripture tells us that the sons of God came to the daughters of men and not the other way around.

[OakWood]

5 hours ago, Neighbor said:

 

I do wonder; if angels are sexless beings  at Heaven, and creations of God not deity themselves, how is it when  a third of them fall with Satan and are cast into chains they become fathers of Nephim?  They have no body, they are spirit, they are not deity, they cannot create, but they  somehow find a period of time maybe a Angel purgatory to develop ability and opportunity to mate and produce a hybrid creation? I don't think so. It doesn't "ring" true to me. 

 

And now I see R.C. Sproul Jr. wrote a piece on the subject- his more pedestrian view seems more likely to me. For I have always found myself  who are these sons of God, and in what context is this term being used here,and perhaps elsewhere?

 Anyway Here is R.C.Sproul Jr.:

Who Are the Sons of God and Daughters of Men in Genesis 6:1-5?

FROM R.C. Sproul Jr. Sep 22, 2012 Category: Articles

“When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” — Genesis 6:1-5

There are several competing theories on this admittedly peculiar text, a few of them fantastic, at least one of them rather pedestrian, ordinary. Some suggest, for instance, that what is happening here is that angels, typically fallen angels or demons, are intermarrying with human women. My position is the far more pedestrian one, but one that carries with it an important lesson.

First, why I reject this more fantastic view. Angels, whether fallen or not, and though I am happy to concede they can appear in human form, are spirit beings. They have no bodies. Most of the time most of us remember this, though here some seem to forget. Because angels are spirit beings they are not equipped to consummate a marriage and to sire offspring. Demons can do all sorts of shocking and even frightening things. This, however, is not one of them. They can’t bring forth giants because they simply can’t bring forth.

When we consider the context of this text we can better understand what Moses is explaining. In previous chapters we are given a glimpse of two competing lines, the godly line of Seth and the wicked line of Cain. Having established the antithesis in the garden, after affirming that there would be a constant struggle between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent we are given snapshot pictures of each of these armies. We see Seth’s line about the business of exercising dominion, in submission to the Lord. We see Cain’s line dishonoring the law of God and making names for themselves. But the future is not mere co-existence between the two lines. The drama builds toward the great crisis of Noah’s flood right here in chapter 6. The great change, what creates the great downward spiral of humanity on the earth is that the two lines come together as one. That is, the godly line of Seth, the sons of God, seeing how attractive are the daughters of men, the wicked line of Cain, decide to take them as wives. The end result, however, isn’t mere dilution. It’s not that the now joined line becomes morally lukewarm, but that evil spreads, grows, deepens. This shouldn’t surprise as for as Chuck Swindoll reminds us, if you drop a white glove in the mud, the mud doesn’t get all glovey.

What we see is salt losing its savor. We see what becomes of intermarrying not with a different race, but a different covenant, or a different faith. What we see is what happens when we are unequally yoked. Nothing, of course, has changed. When the children of God find the world attractive, when we determine to yoke ourselves to it, calamity comes. The world does not get any better, but the church, no longer a light on the hill, becomes much worse, and darkness falls upon the land. We are no longer useful for anything and find ourselves trampled upon the ground.

 

 

You say that angels have no bodies, and normally they don't but they can materialise in the flesh and when they do have physical bodies.

In Genesis 19 we have:

And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

² And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

³ And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

⁴ But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

⁵ And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

⁶ And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

⁷ And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

⁸ Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

⁹ And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

¹⁰ But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

¹¹ And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

 

Why would Lot insist that these men not have sex with the angels and offer his own daughters instead? If these angels had no physical form then sexual contact with them would be impossible anyway. Lot knew that what these men were trying to do would be a great sin (and homosexual too as the angels appeared as men) that he preferred even fornication with his very own daughters than the men commit such an awful abomination.

The angels ate food so they must have had physical bodies with digestive systems. They had eyes, ears, faces and they physically pulled Lot into the house, no doubt with real physical arms. If they have all the other physical attributes of humans then there is no reason that they did not have genitals too.

[Neighbor]

3 hours ago, OakWood said:

You say that angels have no bodies, and normally they don't but they can materialise in the flesh and when they do have physical bodies.

In Genesis 19 we have:

And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

² And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

³ And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

⁴ But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

⁵ And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

⁶ And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

⁷ And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

⁸ Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

⁹ And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

¹⁰ But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

¹¹ And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

 

Why would Lot insist that these men not have sex with the angels and offer his own daughters instead? If these angels had no physical form then sexual contact with them would be impossible anyway. Lot knew that what these men were trying to do would be a great sin (and homosexual too as the angels appeared as men) that he preferred even fornication with his very own daughters than the men commit such an awful abomination.

The angels ate food so they must have had physical bodies with digestive systems. They had eyes, ears, faces and they physically pulled Lot into the house, no doubt with real physical arms. If they have all the other physical attributes of humans then there is no reason that they did not have genitals too.

Lots of theories out htere isn't there? - and varying conclusions, all interesting. Thanks.

[OldCoot]

Well, Jude gave us a little bit of a clue on this.  In Jude 1:6, he mentions that these Angels bent on mischief left their own estate.  And the Greek for that is the same word which Paul uses to describe what we are hoping for in 2 Cor 5:2.  We are hoping to be robed in bodies superior to our own.  These fallen angels disrobed from their bodies.  So in essence, they disrobed from the bodies they had in the spiritual realm.  That would seem to imply that they then took on human form and all the makings of humans which would allow them to then cohabitant with human women.  

We have echoes of this event in Greek mythology.   The "gods" cohabited with human women and produced the Titans, which the Greek term is "fallen ones", the same term as the Hebrew nephalim.  

Given the capabilities of Angels as shown in various passages of scripture, it is not unrealistic to think that they could be capable of more than we give them credit for.  It does say, that in heaven, we will be like the angles there and we do not marry.  But those are not the fallen angels.  We are only able to deal with the 4 dimensions we exist in... length, height, width, and time.  But the Jewish sage Nachmanides, in his analysis of the first two chapters of Genesis, determined that there are 10 dimensions.  We have spent billions on particle colliders and such to determine the very same thing.   We have nary a clue what beings that live in multiple dimensions higher than we live in are really capable of.  When the fallen angels disrobed from their angelic bodies, it could mean that they left those higher dimensions to exist in ours.  Who really knows but them and God.

The scripture makes it clear that Noah was perfect in his generations.  The term for that is the same used for the genetics of an animal that is to be sacrificed, that it be without blemish.  Noah's genetics were not corrupted by all this nonsense.  So he and his family were preserved thru the flood to repopulate the earth.  The rest of the earth had become so genetically corrupted that God was forced to destroy all the inhabitants of the earth.  

But it does say in this passage, that not only were there nephalim on the earth, but also after that.   And we saw that again when the Israelites scouted out Canaan.  The scouts reported that there were nephalim in the land.  This would explain why God commanded that the Israelites kill all men, women, children, livestock, etc upon entering the land.  Satan had 400 years from the time of Abraham to the exodus from Egypt, to lay down a minefield of genetic corruption in the land.  Plutarch and other secular writers of antiquity have written that some of these had bodies that were up to 13 ft tall.  It is quite possible that Goliath was one of these critters.

So what happened to the spirits of those that were nephalim?  They were not human, they were not angels.  I side with others that these disembodied spirits are the demonic activity that goes on from time to time.  And that they seek embodiment.  They have capabilities that they inherited from their fallen angel parentage that, again, may be more than we give them credit for.  It is also possible that what have been described as UFO aliens, may in fact be nephalim hybrids, bodies for these disembodied spirits.   Folks that claim abduction experiences state that these entities always seem to be interested in collecting human ovum and sperm in their so-called "physical examinations" of human abductees.

And it is very probable that this nonsense will be foisted on us again.  Daniel in his description of the statue in Nebachanezer's dream, he made the following description....

Daniel 2:43 (NKJV) As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay.

For something to mingle with the seed of men, they must be something other than the seed of men.  

Bizarre stuff, for sure.  And there are many views.

Edited July 5, 2017 by OldCoot