2 Thessalonians 2:6-7

[simplejeff]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

I fully admit that I label false concepts, falsehoods and untruths as a lie. It's the opposite of truth, ergo, a lie.  Please prove that I'm bearing false witness based on disagreement or interpretation. How could you possibly know my motivation for speaking out is based on simple disagreement?  Concerning exegesis have you explored the process through which these conclusions are drawn? Are you in my head? You have access to my heart? Of course you never asked about my motivations.

As I have said before it's not about convincing, that's the work of the Spirit. 

A lie IS a purposeful act, I agree. But it's also a thing. From Merriam Webster here: 

1a :an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker or writer to be untrue with intent to deceive 

• He told a lie to avoid punishment.

b :an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker or writer 

• the lies we tell ourselves to feel better
• historical records containing numerous lies

2:something that misleads or deceives 

• His show of remorse was a lie. Notice 1b and 2. This follows the bible definition of a lie being an untruth.  Methinks you just don't like defining a thing in absolute terms. Sorta a rude wake up call. I understand.

And because I have been confronted I should roll over? Be like...what? Follow along? Don't make waves? Play nice with the other kids?

 

 

 

The pre-trib is not the root of the trouble.  That is just the leaves on the tree of other false doctrines/ practices/ lives/ beliefs.

i.e. No one can change the leaves of a tree without changing the tree deeper - at the root/ cause.

Any conversation concerning tribulation (pre- , post- , mid- , any-)

on the interent is basically [apparently] speculative and resting on other 'authority',  not actually on Scripture.

Same as catholics who admit their authority is not Jesus,   others have admitted they believed a man who was wrong ,

and that is all that is needed to end the conversation.   Until they see , Yahweh Willing, that the man they believed lied,

nothing else will change their mind, not even God's Word. (since they put their trust in a lie).

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, simplejeff said:

The pre-trib is not the root of the trouble.  That is just the leaves on the tree of other false doctrines/ practices/ lives/ beliefs.

i.e. No one can change the leaves of a tree without changing the tree deeper - at the root/ cause.

Any conversation concerning tribulation (pre- , post- , mid- , any-)

on the interent is basically [apparently] speculative and resting on other 'authority',  not actually on Scripture.

Same as catholics who admit their authority is not Jesus,   others have admitted they believed a man who was wrong ,

and that is all that is needed to end the conversation.   Until they see , Yahweh Willing, that the man they believed lied,

nothing else will change their mind, not even God's Word. (since they put their trust in a lie).

I agree it's not the root of the problem. The root of the issue is spiritual decay as you mentioned. We are rotting from the inside out. Sad state. Scripture says that the vine is spoiled by the little foxes. I always took that to mean it's the little things in a relationship that chip away at the foundations finally collapsing the structure. This is what has happened in the church of Jesus. We have allowed many small changes to our perceptions, from the onset, and the house is atilt.

And yes, because they put their trust in lies. "We have entered into a covenant with death, with the realm of the dead we have made an agreement. When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by, it cannot touch us, for we have made a lie our refuge and falsehood our hiding place." 

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Davida said:

I don't need to know your motivation. You are misusing the English language in order to call Pre-trib a lie and you are accusing people who believe in the Pre-Trib as being under the influence of Satan. That is what makes it a false accusation against the brethren and that is very serious.

Sure, sure. Anyway to the OP; care to have a go?

[Diaste]

On 10/29/2017 at 11:25 AM, Davida said:

No one is going to be " gone astray and brought down"  by disagreeing with the time of the rapture.This is why I usually avoid these threads.    Anyone who is truly saved will be raptured when it happens. 

I don't think you understand the implications of difference of timing in this. First and foremost denying the truth is an egregious mistake. If the 'rapture' occurs pretrib then all the troubling aspects of the final week are avoided by believers. That's best case and we would all like this to be fact. If this is not the case then we all enter the last week as witness to the end. The terror of the week is the dehumanization of believers. We would be forced to live like animals under the edict of the beast; no one allowed to buy or sell unless they have the mark. The reality of this is horrific. It means no utilities, no home, no food or water. No new clothes or other personal items. Not going to watching the news, blu-ray, or going to the barber.  No gas for the vehicle, all loans called in and no job. As bad are the forced conversions while believers are reduced to vermin to be exterminated. That is the harsh reality. Very scary.

Unprepared by avoiding the truth, spiritually weak with shattered perceptions; what are believers going to do when confronted with this reality? Some will be strong no doubt and refuse the mark. For the past 180 years pre trib has been force fed to generations of believers. What happens to them when they are confronted with losing their perception of reality?

This goes back to the OP and why I originally posted. The truth must be told. Again, care to have a go at 2 Thess 2:1-7?

[Last Daze]

19 hours ago, simplejeff said:

The pre-trib is not the root of the trouble.  That is just the leaves on the tree of other false doctrines/ practices/ lives/ beliefs.

i.e. No one can change the leaves of a tree without changing the tree deeper - at the root/ cause.

Any conversation concerning tribulation (pre- , post- , mid- , any-)

on the interent is basically [apparently] speculative and resting on other 'authority',  not actually on Scripture.

I agree and from what I've observed over the course of years is that the pretrib position is largely embraced by those who desire it to be true.  They want it to be true and this desire biases their thinking on the subject.  That's just human nature but we're not called to live according to human nature.  We are called to have our minds renewed in the truth of God's word so that we might know and do the will of God.  If we are to understand the timing of the rapture, we have to do so based on scripture, not on our desires.

Jesus makes it very clear in John 6 that the resurrection of those who believe in Him happens on the last day.  He states that fact four times.  He doesn't hint at it, He states it explicitly four times.  Paul states unequivocally that the resurrection / changing and gathering to Jesus happens at the last trumpet, the trumpet of God.  There is absolutely no doubt that according to scripture, the rapture happens on the last day, when the last trumpet, the trumpet of God sounds.  You would think that this timing would be the focal point in any discussion of the rapture timing since its the most directly stated timing to be found in scripture.  Sadly, to most, its an inconvenient truth that has to be explained away.

 

 

[Daniel 11:36]

Believe this [Revelation 3:10] .... the Lord will keep His own from the hour [time] of trial that is coming upon the whole world [Revelation 6:12-17]

[Last Daze]

1 minute ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Believe this [Revelation 3:10] .... the Lord will keep His own from the hour [time] of trial that is coming upon the whole world [Revelation 6:12-17]

Oh, I do. 

• Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.  Revelation 3:10

Revelation 3:10 isn't a blanket promise for anyone who wants to use it, it's specifically for those who have kept the word of His perseverance.  According to scripture, what is the word of His perseverance?  When does He call on the saints to persevere?  Please just post the scriptures.

[Daniel 11:36]

"Revelation 3:10 isn't a blanket promise for anyone who wants to use it, it's specifically for those who have kept the word of His perseverance"

 

This is all you had to say

[Justin Adams]

Peace: I am not going to take sides here.

But, and it is a big one. If the pre-trib does not happen and it gets so bad that Mad Max will be a gentle afternoon picnic in comparison. I would like to warn those who know how to survive to seriously think about it. Those that will not loose their faith that is.

I have a thought or two that the Lord will somehow protect many, and it will not be a rapture either. However, since we have been warned, even if it is not what we want to believe.... Have another thought as to how you will help those that are weaker than yourselves.

The Lord God may even provide refuge in some form, yet it will not be a walk in the park.
Just take a moment to check out some of the refugee videos of those wartime documentaries.
Look at Russia in 1917. Look as Israel's beginnings in 47-48. Get a feel for what life might be like and prepare.
Check out the newsreels on Syria right now. Today.
Watch some current news about how the average African poor family's lifestyle plays out today. 

Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
There are several reasons we are told to keep our lamps trimmed and full of oil.
Not all of them are merely spiritual reasons either.

[Last Daze]

5 hours ago, Davida said:

There is a lot of scriptures encouraging us to persevere.

James 1:2-4, 12 “Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.  And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.”

Romans 5:3-4 “We rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope.”

Hebrews 12:1-2 “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.”
 

I agree that that is true in a general sense.  However, Revelation 3:10 is is talking about a specific perseverance that's required in order to be kept from a specific time of testing.  God reveals what that specific perseverance is.

5 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Revelation 3:10 isn't a blanket promise for anyone who wants to use it, it's specifically for those who have kept the word of His perseverance"

 

This is all you had to say

Since you didn't post any scriptures, I'll help you out.

• If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.  Revelation 13:10
• "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”  Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.  Revelation 14:11-12

God states very plainly the perseverance that is required of the end time saints, not once, but twice.  Those who refuse the false prophet's mark and do not worship the image are who Revelation 3:10 is talking about.  It is they who have kept the word of His perseverance and it is they who will be kept from the time of testing that will come upon the whole world.