What will the two witnesses prophesy?

[Daniel 11:36]

Keep studying

I think you will find that Daniel's prophecy is about the Lord confirming the covenant that He has with a believing remnant of Israel [Revelation 14:1-7]

Then in the same passage we are told about the other prince who will stand against this at the middle of the 7 year tribulation period .... my king James Bible has a [:] at the end of the Lord's confirmation

And I would suggest that Elijah did come before the tribulation period with an interposing of the Lord's age of grace toward the Gentiles which has been going on for about 2000 years .... this could have been shorter, but is still on going as we speak

So I doubt that one of the witnesses will be Elijah ..... I believe that both mortal men will be new participants at the time who will be killed by the beast after their testimony and raised from the dead after 3 1/2 days at the end of the second half of the 70 week decreed for Israel   

Edited October 8, 2017 by Daniel 11:36

[Diaste]

31 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Keep studying

I think you will find that Daniel's prophecy is about the Lord confirming the covenant that He has with a believing remnant of Israel [Revelation 14:1-7]

Then in the same passage we are told about the other prince who will stand against this at the middle of the 7 year tribulation period .... my king James Bible has a [:] at the end of the Lord's confirmation

And I would suggest that Elijah did come before the tribulation period with an interposing of the Lord's age of grace toward the Gentiles which has been going on for about 2000 years .... this could have been shorter, but is still on going as we speak

So I doubt that one of the witnesses will be Elijah ..... I believe that both mortal men will be new participants at the time who will be killed by the beast after their testimony and raised from the dead after 3 1/2 days at the end of the second half of the 70 week decreed for Israel   

Keep studying what, if I may ask?

You think I'll find what I cannot find? As I said in the previous post I tried to fit Jesus in Dan 9:27 to no avail. Did you read what I said?

You realize you are disputing where I gave scripture as support? The 'colon' here, Dan 9:27, KJV, "27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week  ":"  and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." separates two independent clauses. The second clause goes on to explain more about the first clause. The "colon" does not designate a change in subject hence, the subject "he" is the same in both clauses and must be the beast.

Suggestions are like heart beats. Everyone has them. 

Don't you find free will to be both the joy and the horror of mankind? I do. It allows us to believe anything we want. Such a loathsome enemy. "I believe" grants us both salvation and death. A terrible thing. Like a wounded lion it should be approached with great caution. 

Matt 12, "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." 

A fearful reality.

[Daniel 11:36]

Do not give up your quest to know Biblical truth

It is there .... you just need to find it

[Diaste]

6 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Do not give up your quest to know Biblical truth

It is there .... you just need to find it

Who confirms I have found such truth? You say I have yet to find it. If I agree with you, you will say I have found truth. Just like many others will say if I agree with them. "Truth" is subjective in the context of religion. 

But please do answer the question: Who will confirm 'Truth'?

[Daniel 11:36]

The Lord confirms truth in His word

I have been reading it for over 50 years

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

The Lord confirms truth in His word

I have been reading it for over 50 years

Well since we are at odds over interpretation then who or what is the arbiter of truth in this case? 

[Daniel 11:36]

The Lord

[Serving]

On 07/10/2017 at 8:25 PM, Diaste said:

Hi everyone.

It has been a bit since I posted, been under the weather. I think it was all the smoke from the fires here in the west, very thick this year. But the smoke has cleared and we are all doing much better!

I have to confess. I know that I can be quite forceful, cynical, even blunt in the words I use. I do care about all the brethren in the church of Jesus but I don't say it and that is a great failure on my part.  I want us all to be in the kingdom, immortal, glorified in Jesus, in mansions with power, riches and great responsibility. Truly.

The power of God is salvation and I desire all to come to this reality, a reality more real than that of this earth. I stand against the enemy of that reality and will continue. That enemy is in our midst.

Two thing occur in conjunction; The 70th week and the covenant confirmed by the "he" in Dan 9:27.  The "he" must be in power, or have power, to confirm such a covenant since it would appear the Temple must stand again in order for, "...he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,".  Since the Temple does not stand now it would take extraordinary measures to begin construction in the midst of millions who will oppose any Jewish Temple built in Jerusalem. It won't matter the location, in the City of David or on the Mount, Temple existence will be the offense for a great many Arabs of the Muslim faith. 

THE powerful leader will make the covenant and in the 3.5 years will profane the Temple. This has to be the beast. So then the beast come to power, not 'revealed' at the beginning of the week, or before, in order to confirm the covenant for the whole 7 years. Likely he will need to demonstrate great power, or rise to this position in a flash of power; or Israel would not trust their safety to him.

This would be the beast and Israel may or may not know who they have entered into agreement. This necessitates the appearance of the two witnesses at the beginning of the week; to warn Israel and oppose the beast and his followers. If that does not appear agreeable keep in mind the time frames: 1260 days of prophecy of the witnesses and 1260 days from the confirmation of the covenant to the A of D. Also, the witnesses could not have 1260 days of prophecy in the 2nd half as the Wrath of God begins sometime before the end of the week, how long I cannot tell. It could be as long as 5-6 months. Maybe the Wrath of God only lasts a week. Still would short the time of prophecy of the two witnesses.

Possibly the witnesses appear just prior to the A of D in order to fulfill the entire 1260 days before the Wrath of God falls on the earth. I think not. The two witnesses oppose the beast and when he rises to power he will not suffer any resistance, especially in Israel and Jerusalem, which is where the witnesses will be, tormenting the the people of earth and destroying their enemies. 

It makes great sense that the two will be Moses and Elijah. These are the two most revered figures in Jewish history; Moses the lawgiver and Elijah the great prophet. All Jewish religion is based on the Law of Moses. What a shock when he returns to oppose Jewish religious history! We know Elijah will come as the Lord has said. Enoch may be the other however Moses would be a more powerful witness to the truth of God and the lies of religion.

 

Hi Diaste,

Concerning this :

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The reason I can not accept that this is speaking of the "beast" is a simple one .. and that is that the Temple to be built, will, on completion and even before completion, will ALREADY be desolate .. it will be desolate simply because Jesus is the ONLY way to God and the coming Temple and it's services symbolise Israel's ongoing REJECTION of Messiah .. and ANY teaching (Judaism as it is today) that rejects Messiah IS already desolate (can not lead to LIFE) .. therefore it is impossible for the beast to make that which is already desolate (what the Temple REPRESENTS) .. desolate .. (seeing that the Temple is the embodiment of Judaisms misplaced aspirations and ongoing rejection of Messiah).

And as for this :  "and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate" .. the abominations mentioned are the abominations that the Israelite's constantly committed against God's covenant, like these for examples :

Jeremiah 7:30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.

Ezekiel 5:11 Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.

And : "he shall make it desolate" concerns (his) Christ's New Covenant "replacing" the Old Covenant, that is, the Old Covenant can not save us, and if it can not save us, it is then become desolate, only the New Covenant gives LIFE now, to reject the New Covenant to follow the Old Covenant does NOT lead to life because it means rejecting Messiah, and if one follows something that rejects LIFE (Messiah) then one follows something desolate (bereft of life). So HIS coming with His New Covenant made the Old one DESOLATE, simple as that.

I also reject the 70 weeks gap theory very strongly and do not for one minute accept that there is a future "week" yet to be fulfilled .. to me, the 70 weeks is long finished/fulfilled.

Question : IF the 70th week was left for a future date to be fulfilled, then WHY was Israel punished?

Because the so called future week would in reality be an EXTENSION, like on a repayment, and when one is given an extension, one is NOT punished/defaulted unless the EXTENSION date is likewise broken .. again, WHY then was Israel severely punished in 70ad ( which, btw, was perfectly in line with the failure to fulfil the 6 requirements to be fulfilled WITHIN the set 70 weeks) seeing that this "future week extension" could in no way breached until some time deep into their future?? 

That would be unrighteous of God IF the 70th week was indeed some future week to be fulfilled and yet they were punished for something they had not yet failed !! .. it just doesn't add up when the right questions are asked of it.

Thanks Diaste.  

[Diaste]

On 10/12/2017 at 10:33 AM, Serving said:

Hi Diaste,

Concerning this :

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The reason I can not accept that this is speaking of the "beast" is a simple one .. and that is that the Temple to be built, will, on completion and even before completion, will ALREADY be desolate .. it will be desolate simply because Jesus is the ONLY way to God and the coming Temple and it's services symbolise Israel's ongoing REJECTION of Messiah .. and ANY teaching (Judaism as it is today) that rejects Messiah IS already desolate (can not lead to LIFE) .. therefore it is impossible for the beast to make that which is already desolate (what the Temple REPRESENTS) .. desolate .. (seeing that the Temple is the embodiment of Judaisms misplaced aspirations and ongoing rejection of Messiah).

Well, yeah. But this isn't the point. The point is what you mentioned, "...the coming Temple and it's services symbolise Israel's ongoing REJECTION of Messiah ..." Another reason for the Temple is to bring forth the 1260 days of the beast. But this passage may not be the about the Third Temple. Dan 9:27 looks to be about Antiochus IV and his great blasphemy. Dan 12 is the end of the age passage and mentions the Temple through the event of the A of D. But yes, any Temple of stone supposedly built as the house of God is a dead Temple rejecting Christ and the promises of the Father.

And as for this :  "and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate" .. the abominations mentioned are the abominations that the Israelite's constantly committed against God's covenant, like these for examples :

Jeremiah 7:30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.

Ezekiel 5:11 Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.

Again I agree. The Father, through Jesus has made great changes. No longer is the the dwelling place of God on earth in a Temple of stone, hasn't been for a long long time. Never was really. The idea of the abominations make the Temple desolate is for the Jews. No matter what the truth of God says the Jewish people are going to think the Temple of stone is holy. It's a mainstay of their national and religious identity. It's misguided to be sure. Totally incorrect. Even the thought of this Temple of stone in the heart of man is a rejection of Jesus and a terrible blasphemy.

And : "he shall make it desolate" concerns (his) Christ's New Covenant "replacing" the Old Covenant, that is, the Old Covenant can not save us, and if it can not save us, it is then become desolate, only the New Covenant gives LIFE now, to reject the New Covenant to follow the Old Covenant does NOT lead to life because it means rejecting Messiah, and if one follows something that rejects LIFE (Messiah) then one follows something desolate (bereft of life). So HIS coming with His New Covenant made the Old one DESOLATE, simple as that.

While that's true, the third Temple is serving it's own purpose unrelated to the revealing of the truth of the OT through the coming of Jesus and the NT. Not dogmatic about this but I gather the third Temple is all about proving to the Jews, once again, they have made the wrong choice. To wit: 

14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which [is] in Jerusalem.

15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: 18 And your covenant with death shall be dis-annulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

This is and end time passage from Isaiah 28. Again the Jewish people are going to look to an earthly leader to fix their problems and allow for their aspirations. And it's doomed to failure. And they know it.

I also reject the 70 weeks gap theory very strongly and do not for one minute accept that there is a future "week" yet to be fulfilled .. to me, the 70 weeks is long finished/fulfilled.

Question : IF the 70th week was left for a future date to be fulfilled, then WHY was Israel punished?

Because the so called future week would in reality be an EXTENSION, like on a repayment, and when one is given an extension, one is NOT punished/defaulted unless the EXTENSION date is likewise broken .. again, WHY then was Israel severely punished in 70ad ( which, btw, was perfectly in line with the failure to fulfil the 6 requirements to be fulfilled WITHIN the set 70 weeks) seeing that this "future week extension" could in no way breached until some time deep into their future?? 

That would be unrighteous of God IF the 70th week was indeed some future week to be fulfilled and yet they were punished for something they had not yet failed !! .. it just doesn't add up when the right questions are asked of it.

I have to reject this line of thought. Let's assume that 490 years is the time frame and that 483 years passed and the prophetic clock was stopped to allow for a gap between 69 weeks and the final 70th week. If that's true then there has been 2500+ years for the Jews to fulfill the requirements of Dan 9:24. I'm basing this on when Cyrus ruled in Babylon to the current age. God said there would be 70 sevens to allow the Jewish people time for, "... your people and your holy city to finish^[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place..." but there has been over 300 sevens! That is more than righteous. In fact the Jews have all the time of the full 70 weeks to fulfill the hope of the Father for them. But it will take acceptance of the Lord Jesus to do this and they, as a nation reject the Messiah and plow forward to fulfill their need for national identity in the form of the Temple. If the Jewish people have not accepted Christ, when all the prophets of the OT did, after all these years, when are they going to?

Thanks Diaste.  

 

[Daniel 11:36]

There are two princes in Daniel 9:26-27

The messiah prince, and the antichrist

It is Jesus who will confirm the covenant that He has with those of believing Israel: and it is the other prince, the antichrist who will do the rest .... and he will be destroyed by Jesus during the battle of Armageddon [Revelation 19:19-20]