Omegaman 3.0 Posted September 27, 2017 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 57 Topic Count: 1,546 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 10,320 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 12,323 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/05/1951 Share Posted September 27, 2017 1 minute ago, Fidei Defensor said: I learned about Calvinism from scholars (Bruce Shellely, Church History in Plain Language 4th Edition, Diarmand McCulloch's The Reformation). They went into John Calvin's Ecclesiastical Exercises, TULIP and other teachings in quite some detail. That is where my information comes from, two of most well known Church History books to date. That is nice, but it is just a book! Tulip, is not John Calvin's invention, but it does fall under the heading of what people call Callvinism. The TULIP is a concoction of the Dutch Reformed Church, in 1618–1619, Calvin died in 1574, Luther died in 1546. If you want to detail the thing you learned from reading a book, how about giving the exact details, that led you to conclude that Calvinism included merit based salvation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert William Posted September 28, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 612 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 93 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 28, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Reinitin said: I try to look at Calvins changes like this. Not one of us can walk with the Lord or seek the Lord or search the scripturesand not be humbled and not be changed in thinking and understanding. Kind of silly but when I (totally ignorant, No christian biblical knowledge baised information). In my total faith, with total conviction and total nieveness. Fought tooth and nail for the existance of Unicorns with people full of the Word and that had taugh me KJV only word for word is truth. How silly? How could they be right if I was wrong? As a very young lover of horses and ponies I really believed the bible comfirmed the existance of unicorn's. It was my very first doctrin fight with big boys:) So we are all humbled and learn of the Lord. They had to admit Unicorn should of been translated oxen to correct my vain imagination and false doctrin.. I see the TULIP clearly in scripture, Lord willing if you keep studying you will too. Lisa, which point do you have the most difficulty with? Edited September 28, 2017 by Robert William 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinitin Posted September 28, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 13 Topic Count: 51 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,366 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 2,150 Days Won: 9 Joined: 01/10/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Robert William said: I see the TULIP clearly in scripture, Lord willing if you keep studying you will too. Lisa, which point do you have the most difficulty with? I see Tulip as a summary of the synode of dort. I dont have any difficulty with it. The many ways calvanism's tulip is expressed and arrticulated swings all over the place depending on the congergation, elders and man on a pulpit, teaching the class or writing the book. Im not for or against it. It is a theology, one of many in a time of great deception. It's Belief's about God, Sin, Salvation,The Lord and believers. They proclaim the name of Christ and encourage people to believe in Christ and call on Him. He saves! what is actually true and what the Lord did is doing and will do, will not change even though mens beliefs do. What can we do about what people think and say? My biggest sceptism with the ideas is they conflict with John 17 and contradict other things Jesus said. Jesus would have to tell me to listen to other people and believe the synode of dort instead of trusting Him to teach me and save me and believing his disciples. Since I have his word's, his disciples words and Christ in me, why do i need the summary of the synode of dort telling me what I have to believe? I don't have to completely agree with people to believe Christ can save them. He's showed me a lot of stuff in scripture it doesn't matter if no one else sees it. He showed me to correct me. Non of mans system's can contain the knowledge of God. Earth can't even contain the books if all Jesus did was written down. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert William Posted September 28, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 612 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 93 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 28, 2017 I lean towards reformed theology 8 minutes ago, Reinitin said: I see Tulip as a summary of the synode of dort. I dont have any difficulty with it. The many ways calvanism's tulip is expressed and arrticulated swings all over the place depending on the congergation, elders and man on a pulpit, teaching the class or writing the book. Im not for or against it. It is a theology, one of many in a time of great deception. It's Belief's about God, Sin, Salvation,The Lord and believers. They proclaim the name of Christ and encourage people to believe in Christ and call on Him. He saves! what is actually true and what the Lord did is doing and will do, will not change even though mens beliefs do. What can we do about what people think and say? My biggest sceptism with the ideas is they conflict with John 17 and contradict other things Jesus said. Jesus would have to tell me to listen to other people and believe the synode of dort instead of trusting Him to teach me and save me and believing his disciples. Since I have his word's, his disciples words and Christ in me, why do i need the summary of the synode of dort telling me what I have to believe? I don't have to completely agree with people to believe Christ can save them. He's showed me a lot of stuff in scripture it doesn't matter if no one else sees it. He showed me to correct me. Non of mans system's can contain the knowledge of God. Earth can't even contain the books if all Jesus did was written down. Sister, beautifully spoken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert William Posted September 28, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 612 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 93 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 28, 2017 21 hours ago, Reinitin said: Ken Stewart has a really cool book. No it's not a back slap to calvanist's. Ken is a christian historian Professor of theology and biblical history who sets the historical record straight for reform pastors. Some of the myths i see proclaimed here in the forums with great zeal. first off calvin wasn't a hero of reformation it started 200 years before he was born in several cities not just Geneva. Second Calvin did not write today's predestination doctrin often credited to him. predestination theology was developed and tossed around way before calvin and the Tulip Doctrin was revised several times and not established in 1913. Calvins doctrins and theology changed several times through his life. He didn't even go into predestination till late in his life. Tulip was developed from some quick incomplete notes Calvin wrote after studying the Kingdom of God by agustus or Augustein I always mix those 2 up:) Anyway it is a really great book if you want to make claims about calvanism it is good to fact check. exspecially if your using false information to elevate your own doctrins and mentor over other christians. Plus, it gives you truth for a response against the false claims against calvanism like snake handling and calvin confussion. Ken Stewart did a really great job of sighting historical records and seperating the myths from the facts. So you can really see the depths of Reform ubderstanding way deeper into truth by scripture instead of the Tulip glaze you can eat the cake. Please read Ephesians chapter one and Romans chapter eight and nine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinitin Posted September 28, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 13 Topic Count: 51 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,366 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 2,150 Days Won: 9 Joined: 01/10/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 28, 2017 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Robert William said: Please read Ephesians chapter one and Romans chapter eight and nine. why? i know the bible by heart? all of it. in context. I can resight to you the whole letters of Romans and Ephesians. do those verse hold more authourity then any messages in the letters and completely hearing an apostal out? Edited September 28, 2017 by Reinitin i said then then:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert William Posted September 28, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 612 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 93 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 28, 2017 5 minutes ago, Reinitin said: why? i know the bible by heart? all of it. in context. OK, then your explanation should be fabulous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinitin Posted September 28, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 13 Topic Count: 51 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,366 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 2,150 Days Won: 9 Joined: 01/10/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 28, 2017 5 minutes ago, Robert William said: OK, then your explanation should be fabulous. what is there to explain? It says it all so beautifuly. I often wonder why people tare it all into little parts like a tough steak. It is a pool of living water that refreshes our souls. We just rest in:) you know? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reformed Baptist Posted September 28, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 235 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 76 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/16/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/01/1973 Share Posted September 28, 2017 On 9/27/2017 at 9:54 AM, Fidei Defensor said: Calvin's is akin to Islamic Christianity or Chrislam. Why? Because John Calvin taught natural selection, God chooses you, but Calvin's five tenets of His ecclesiastical exercises were how he said a Calvinst knows they are chosen, Of course you are aware that the 5 points are a much later construction - truthfully they can only be traced to the early 20th Century (which makes a lot of sense as theology in Calvin's day was written mainly in Latin). However, if you disagree I am confident you can post citations from Calvin's own words to support your claim? Quote but in the end he said "even if you do the five exercises, you will never know your chosen and saved." Again, I'm sure you can provide the citation for your quote? Quote Islam's prophet Muhammed taught that adherants (Muslim) must do Jihad Ashgar: good deeds to outweight their bad deeds to make Allah let them enter paradise, but even if a Muslim does Ashgar all their lives they never know if they will enter paradise and if Allah will approve of them. (Wagner, How Islam Plans to Change the World). Sound similar? Calvism and Islam teach merit based salvation but in the end both Calvin and Muhammed say you never know your saved. This is laughable - how does Calvinism teach 'merit based' salvation? Calvinism is a teaching of God's sovereignty in salvation and one core idea of Calvinism is that nothing we do is good enough. Quote In comtrast the Bible tells us we are saved when we believe and confess Jesus as our Lord and Son of God (Romans 10:9-10, John 6:40, John 3:16-18, 1 John 4:15). It also tells us that faith is a gift of God - Eph 2:8-9 and that repentance is also a gift of God - Acts 11:18 Quote Calvism is a cult, Well my friend, looking at what you have posted I'm not convinced you have ever actually studied what Calvinism teaches - if you wish to prove your claim you need to actually cite Calvinists making statements that are 'cultic' - can you do that? Quote it fails to answer Grace (Ephesians 2:8-9) How? Quote and the Great Commision, "go make disiciples.." (Matthew 28:16-20). Interesting claim considering how many missionaries and gospel preachers were/ are Calvinists. of course the Calvinist would say that calvinism empowers the great commission - we can make disciples because God saves sinners! If it was up to us what chance would we have? Quote In addition, Calvin's chosen message is refuted by the Apostles Peter and Paul, "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) and, "3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4). Just some quick questions regarding this text if you don't mind. 1) have you traced Paul's use of pronouns in the passage - by that I mean who is 'the you' he is addressing? 2) what do you understand 'all men' to mean? 3) if God desires that every person who has ever lived should be saved then why does he allow so many to die without even hearing the gospel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jude1:3 Posted September 28, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 391 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 158 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/14/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 28, 2017 Calvinism is Heretical Garbage but so is Arminianism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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