Is deception biblically defensible?

[BK1110]

Our job is not to deceive, it is the opposite; to reveal the truth! What happens later if your deception is found out; don't you think the people will go "ah, see, this "Christian" is just a liar like anyone else." Your deception has damaged you testimony and has cast a bad light on the gospel at that point.

[Josah]

17 minutes ago, BK1110 said:

Our job is not to deceive, it is the opposite; to reveal the truth! What happens later if your deception is found out; don't you think the people will go "ah, see, this "Christian" is just a liar like anyone else." Your deception has damaged you testimony and has cast a bad light on the gospel at that point.

is it wrong to simultaneously: 

deceive that which hates you?

deceive for the maintenance of peace? 

deceive for the advancement of the Kingdom of God?

deceive to better yourself and many many others?  

OF COURSE NOT.

 

[BK1110]

Proverbs 12:22 ESV - Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight.

Psalm 52:2 ESV - Your tongue plots destruction, like a sharp razor, you worker of deceit.

Mark 7:20-22 ESV - And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.

John 8:44 ESV - You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

The Kingdom of God does not advance through deceit. We have the one truth, and only by sharing that and making way for the Holy Spirit to work in people's hearts can they be saved. Lies and deception are eventually found out, and trust is damaged when they do. Why would we deceive when we posses the truth? The world is full of lies and deception, and we are called to be different from the world because we are no longer of the world! We are not to compromise the truth and righteousness.

[Josah]

34 minutes ago, BK1110 said:

Proverbs 12:22 ESV - Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight.

Psalm 52:2 ESV - Your tongue plots destruction, like a sharp razor, you worker of deceit.

Mark 7:20-22 ESV - And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.

John 8:44 ESV - You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

The Kingdom of God does not advance through deceit. We have the one truth, and only by sharing that and making way for the Holy Spirit to work in people's hearts can they be saved. Lies and deception are eventually found out, and trust is damaged when they do. Why would we deceive when we posses the truth? The world is full of lies and deception, and we are called to be different from the world because we are no longer of the world! We are not to compromise the truth and righteousness.

3

1. You CONFLATED lying with deceit... there is a big difference. 

2. My tongue does not plot destruction, it plots CONSTRUCTION.

3. Deceit can have a difference in form and degree, adultery, etc, cannot... 

To prove point, Jesus demonstrated that theft can sometimes be fine, for example, Jesus taught that it was fine to eat some food from another person's 'farm' if you needed it... so obviously, there is a difference in degree for some of the things which we are instructed to desist from doing... at its lowest degree, theft is fine and good, likewise, deceit, in its lowest degree, and in pursuit of righteousness, is fine and good. 

4. Deceit does have truth though, again, you conflate deceit with the absence of truth, the practice of deceit and the uttering of truths are not mutually exclusive, again, lying and employing deceit is not the same. 

5. The Kingdom of God can advance through several means... who are you to determine how and how not the Kingdom of God can advance? 

Oh right, you are in no place to determine how and how not it advances, the Bible determines, but ultimately, God is the final arbitrator as to how His Kingdom is to advance.   

You are yet to provide any scripture which demonstrates that my form of deception is inconsistent with Biblical teachings. 

Yet, I have provided numerous examples and proofs and disproofs.

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Josah

[BK1110]

What is it you're here for? You phrased the topic title as a question, as though you wanted to get people's opinions. Clearly you've already made up your mind though. And you've provided no examples or real proofs. What is your "form of deception" exactly? You threw Matthew 10:16 out there in your first post.

16 “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. 17 Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues, 18 and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them and the Gentiles. 19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. -- Matthew 10:16-20 ESV

Notice that, first of all, "cunning" is also translated "wise." Cunning as a word has picked up a negative connotation over the years, and so people no longer translate it that way. He's talking about being intelligent, not deceitful.

Can you give any real examples of when you need to deceive someone for the sake of Christ? And can you give any verses that really, especially in proper context, either command or just allow it?

[Josah]

1 hour ago, BK1110 said:

What is it you're here for? You phrased the topic title as a question, as though you wanted to get people's opinions. Clearly you've already made up your mind though. And you've provided no examples or real proofs. What is your "form of deception" exactly? You threw Matthew 10:16 out there in your first post.

16 “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. 17 Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues, 18 and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them and the Gentiles. 19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. -- Matthew 10:16-20 ESV

Notice that, first of all, "cunning" is also translated "wise." Cunning as a word has picked up a negative connotation over the years, and so people no longer translate it that way. He's talking about being intelligent, not deceitful.

Can you give any real examples of when you need to deceive someone for the sake of Christ? And can you give any verses that really, especially in proper context, either command or just allow it?

Yes, gloss over all the other scripture which indicates that there is a good form of deceit and a bad form. 

Colossians 2:8 

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

If some deceit is vain it naturally follows that some decent is not vain.

If some deceit is not vain then it follows that such a deceit can advance the Kingdom of God.

This is because ALL earthly things are VANITIES OF VANITIES... but that which advances the Kingdom of God is not in VANITY.  

Why does the Bible use serpents in this example? 

The serpent in the garden of Eve was WISE.

How was the serpent in the garden of Eve WISE?

The serpent was WISE through its DECEPTION. 

The serpent did not lie, the serpent deceived, and deception always has a truth in it. 

Wouldn't you agree that to be able to deceive is to be wise?

In other words, wouldn't you say that only a wise thing could make someone think that a certain thing is true when it is not true, but at the same time, provide a truth, only, the truth that is uttered takes the form of another meaning for that other person? 

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Josah

[Josah]

1 minute ago, Sojourner414 said:

 

Scripture here is pointing out that both Jesus' deeds were pure as well as His words; that is apparent from the context:

"For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls."  (1 Peter 2:21-25, NASB, emphasis mine)

"Leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,"; in other words, to do as He did. When Scripture tells us to follow the Lord and to do as He did, it does not  leave anything he would not have done as "a tool".  Since Jesus is God, God doesn't lie, and Scripture commands us to "be imitators of Him" (1 Thess 1:6, Eph 5:1, 1 Cor. 11:1) then we are not to deceive anyone.

God's final word on this is:

"And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. “He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” " (Revelation 21:5-8, NASB, emphasis mine)

 

Josah, you have no business telling anyone here that it is okay to deceive, lie or anything else that goes against the Word of God.
 

 

you are right

i am sorry

thank you for your warning

[Josah]

2 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

You're welcome Josah. Sorry I was so stern, but there are new believers here and those who are young in the faith. I am not a moderator; just a believer who does not want anyone to think that deception is how we should conduct ourselves.

i have taken great steps to end the deception

thankfully the experience was not too traumatic

 

[Justin Adams]

7 hours ago, Josah said:

is it wrong to simultaneously: 

deceive that which hates you?

deceive for the maintenance of peace? 

deceive for the advancement of the Kingdom of God?

deceive to better yourself and many many others?  

OF COURSE NOT.

 

We began this conversation yesterday. I asked you to be specific. Brother Andrew not withstanding, what are you trying to prove to us and yourself here?

Yes, King David pretended idiocy in order to save his skin. There are a few instances like that in the scripture. However, you have not given us a specific yet as to why you think you are 'allowed' to deceive.

I have not beaten your idea to the ground (yet) and have given you ample time to come to the point. If there is one?

ADDED:

I see you have reconsidered your position because of Sojourner. Well done!

Wonderful!!

[enoob57]

I like to see how this thread has revealed the subtly of the devil... he has spent 6000 years here trying to make sin a necessity in the mind or at best something of created purpose! However God has clearly declared it has no place with Him... and where do we desire to be? So to avoid sin and it's confusion we should resist it's use and pray for deliverance from... Love, Steven