Limited Atonement

[Robert William]

Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)

Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9)

Joh 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine...  Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28).  

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins

Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).
This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not Atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!

[OneLight]

Either God was lying when He spoke in John 3:14-17, Jesus was disobeying God in John 17:9, or you misunderstand what scripture means about the atonement of sins through Christ.

Robert, which do you think is most likely the truth here?

[Unfailing Presence]

9 hours ago, Robert William said:

Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)

Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9)

Joh 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine...  Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28).  

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins

Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).
This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not Atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!

God's thought on " atonement "  is a saving one .

Calvary !

Deep it is , full of tears , suffering unto death , redemptive by His own passion , a thought of love so excelling that God Himself can think no greater .

The cross of Christ is God's most precious thought for all people  .

 

                                                                      God sent His Son , " For whosoever "   said He , 

                                                                        And so I know that He sent Him for me . 

[Guest shiloh357]

10 hours ago, Robert William said:

Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)

Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9)

Joh 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine...  Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28).  

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins

Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).
This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not Atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!

If John 17:9 were the ONLY thing that the NT says about redemption and who Christ died for, you would be right.  But that Bible has much, much more to say about redemption and the fact that Jesus died for the sins of every man.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(1Ti 2:5-6)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(2Pe 3:9)

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
(Isa 53:6)

The OT archetype of redemption is seen in the Passover/Exodus.  Every firstborn of Israel who had the blood on the doorposts of their homes were spared by the death angel.   If an Egyptian firstborn was in the home of someone with the blood on their doorposts, he was saved, as well.  All the death angel was looking for was the blood.  According to Scripture all of Israel was saved.   God did not save just a select group of Israelites from bondage.   He saved them all because they all had the blood on their doorposts and they were all delivered that very night.

Everything about salvation in the NT is typified in the OT.  And Limited Atonement is not found in the OT, there are no OT types of Limited Atonement connected to any types and shadows relative to salvation in the OT.  The NT does not teach salvation differently than the OT.

 

 

 

[Robert William]

18 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

If John 17:9 were the ONLY thing that the NT says about redemption and who Christ died for, you would be right.  But that Bible has much, much more to say about redemption and the fact that Jesus died for the sins of every man.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(1Ti 2:5-6)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(2Pe 3:9)

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
(Isa 53:6)

The OT archetype of redemption is seen in the Passover/Exodus.  Every firstborn of Israel who had the blood on the doorposts of their homes were spared by the death angel.   If an Egyptian firstborn was in the home of someone with the blood on their doorposts, he was saved, as well.  All the death angel was looking for was the blood.  According to Scripture all of Israel was saved.   God did not save just a select group of Israelites from bondage.   He saved them all because they all had the blood on their doorposts and they were all delivered that very night.

Everything about salvation in the NT is typified in the OT.  And Limited Atonement is not found in the OT, there are no OT types of Limited Atonement connected to any types and shadows relative to salvation in the OT.  The NT does not teach salvation differently than the OT.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, but scripture does NOT teach universal salvation!

All does not mean all all the time.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmqWJ_A91_k

1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all,.... What the Mediator gave as a ransom for men is "himself", his body and his soul, which were both made an offering for sin; and his life, which is the result of union between soul and body; his whole human nature as in union with his divine person, and so might be truly said to be himself: this he gave into the hands of men, of justice and of death; and that voluntarily, which shows his great love to his people; and also as a "ransom", or a ransom price for them, αντιλυτρον, in their room and stead; to ransom them from the slavery of sin, and damnation by it, from the captivity of Satan, and the bondage of the law, and from the grave, death, hell, ruin, and destruction: and this ransom was given for "all"; not for every individual of mankind, for then all would be delivered, freed, and saved, whereas they are not; or else the ransom price is paid in vain, or God is unjust to receive a sufficient ransom price from Christ, and yet not free the captive, but punish the person for whom he has received satisfaction; neither of which can be said. But the meaning is, either that he gave himself a ransom for many, as in Mat_20:28 for the Hebrew word כל, to which this answers, signifies sometimes many, a multitude, and sometimes only a part of a multitude, as Kimchi observes (y): or rather it intends that Christ gave himself a ransom for all sorts of men, for men of every rank and quality, of every state and condition, of every age and sex, and for all sorts of sinners, and for some out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation, for both Jews and Gentiles; which latter may more especially be designed by all, as they are sometimes by the world, and the whole world; and so contains another argument why all sorts of men are to be prayed for, since the same ransom price is given for them; as that for the children of Israel was the same, for the rich as for the poor. We (z) read, that when the people of Israel comforted the high priest upon the death of his wife, or any relation, they used to say to him, אנו כפרתך, "we are thy atonement", expiation, or ransom; that is, as the commentators (a) explain it, by us thou shalt be atoned, for we will be in thy room and stead, with respect to all things that shall come upon thee; but here the High priest and Mediator is the atonement and ransom for the people:

 

[Robert William]

1 hour ago, Unfailing Presence said:

God's thought on " atonement "  is a saving one .

Calvary !

Deep it is , full of tears , suffering unto death , redemptive by His own passion , a thought of love so excelling that God Himself can think no greater .

The cross of Christ is God's most precious thought for all people  .

 

                                                                      God sent His Son , " For whosoever "   said He , 

                                                                        And so I know that He sent Him for me . 

That's not what scripture teaches, God does NOT love everybody. The word of God supersedes your feelings and emotions.

Joh_3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, Robert William said:

 

Sorry, but scripture does NOT teach universal salvation!

I think we need to be clear about our terminology.   Universal salvation speaks to the heresy of Universalism wherein all people will be saved (even those who are already dead like Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, etc).

Saying that Jesus died for all men is NOT universal salvation.  The scope of Jesus' atonement reaches as far as the scope of sin.

 

Quote

All does not mean all all the time.

I Tim. 2:6 says that Jesus gave His life as a ransom for ALL, meaning all men.

Quote

1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all,.... What the Mediator gave as a ransom for men is "himself", his body and his soul, which were both made an offering for sin; and his life, which is the result of union between soul and body; his whole human nature as in union with his divine person, and so might be truly said to be himself: this he gave into the hands of men, of justice and of death; and that voluntarily, which shows his great love to his people; and also as a "ransom", or a ransom price for them, αντιλυτρον, in their room and stead; to ransom them from the slavery of sin, and damnation by it, from the captivity of Satan, and the bondage of the law, and from the grave, death, hell, ruin, and destruction: and this ransom was given for "all"; not for every individual of mankind, for then all would be delivered, freed, and saved, whereas they are not; or else the ransom price is paid in vain, or God is unjust to receive a sufficient ransom price from Christ, and yet not free the captive, but punish the person for whom he has received satisfaction; neither of which can be said.

That is false teaching.   To say that "all" doesnt mean that Jesus died for every person, defies the clear meaning of the word, "all"  and the plain sense of the text and defies I Tim. 2:4,"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

There is no context where all simply means, "many."  Those are not interchangeable terms.  
 

A man is at enmity with God so long as that man remains in his unregenerate state.  God offers the plan of salvation to him and calls him, but man is not obligated to obey that call. Man can refuse God's call to salvation.   The ransom paid the full price, but that does not mean that all men will come to Christ.  In their foolish, stubborn rebellion, many will love their sin more than anything God offers to them. 

Those who reject the offer of salvation will be punished and there is no injustice on God's part for doing so.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

11 minutes ago, Robert William said:

That's not what scripture teaches, God does NOT love everybody. The word of God supersedes your feelings and emotions.

Joh_3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

God DOES love everybody, even those who, due to their stubborn rejection of Him, abide under His wrath. 

When the wrath of God falls, it will fall with a broken heart.

[Robert William]

1 minute ago, shiloh357 said:

I think we need to be clear about our terminology.   Universal salvation speaks to the heresy of Universalism wherein all people will be saved (even those who are already dead like Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, etc).

Saying that Jesus died for all men is NOT universal salvation.  The scope of Jesus' atonement reaches as far as the scope of sin.

 

I Tim. 2:6 says that Jesus gave His life as a ransom for ALL, meaning all men.

That is false teaching.   To say that "all" doesnt mean that Jesus died for every person, defies the clear meaning of the word, "all"  and the plain sense of the text and defies I Tim. 2:4,"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

There is no context where all simply means, "many."  Those are not interchangeable terms.  
 

A man is at enmity with God so long as that man remains in his unregenerate state.  God offers the plan of salvation to him and calls him, but man is not obligated to obey that call. Man can refuse God's call to salvation.   The ransom paid the full price, but that does not mean that all men will come to Christ.  In their foolish, stubborn rebellion, many will love their sin more than anything God offers to them. 

Those who reject the offer of salvation will be punished and there is no injustice on God's part for doing so.

 

That is a false teaching, scripture does NOT teach universal salvation, it most will be on the broad path to destruction!

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, Robert William said:

That is a false teaching, scripture does NOT teach universal salvation, it most will be on the broad path to destruction!

I have already stated that I am not talking about universal salvation.  Try actually reading what I wrote instead of just brushing it aside and offering shallow responses that prove you don't even read what you're responding to.