Who do you think negotiates the treaty in Daniel 9:27?

[Diaste]

35 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Perhaps.  We'll see.

I forgot to mention an interesting item from the news. The crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, king actually, has organized a meeting of 41 Arab nations, excluding Qatar, to deal with terrorism and the Palestinian issue. Seems he favors giving the Jews the promised land and moving Palestinian people to other countries such as Egypt, Jordan, etc, and dealing with ISIS and Hamas.

Be interesting to see how that plays out.

[Last Daze]

16 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I forgot to mention an interesting item from the news. The crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, king actually, has organized a meeting of 41 Arab nations, excluding Qatar, to deal with terrorism and the Palestinian issue. Seems he favors giving the Jews the promised land and moving Palestinian people to other countries such as Egypt, Jordan, etc, and dealing with ISIS and Hamas.

Be interesting to see how that plays out.

Yeah, that is interesting.

[Last Daze]

Some things to consider concerning Daniel 9:27.

• The seventy sevens were decreed to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.  The eternal new covenant in Christ's blood is extremely significant in addressing those things, so wouldn't it make sense that there would be an equally significant reference to it in the prophecy?
• What did Jesus do during His ministry here on earth?  He confirmed the new covenant with Daniel's people.  He brought a heavenly understanding to a people focused on the earthly; spiritual truth to the worldly minded.  How many times did He ask, "Do you still not understand?"  He was preparing His disciples for the eventual new covenant indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I just can't imagine that given the context of the prophecy, and the eternal significance of the new covenant, that the covenant being mentioned is anything other than the new covenant.

[Daniel 11:36]

It is the Lord who will confirm the covenant that He has with believing Israel during the coming tribulation period:

.... it is the other prince who will oppose Him and be destroyed 

[WilliamL]

On 11/29/2017 at 3:55 AM, Diaste said:

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In the above the 'he' only confirms an existing covenant. A covenant already exists that 'he' strengthens but does not create or negotiate. Further 'he' only lends support for 7 years. Then, in the middle of the week, the A of D occurs. In the time of Vespasian the temple was  destroyed and the sacrifice and oblation ended and no opportunity for the A of D to be placed on the altar. Remember? The Temple was burned to the ground in the bloodlust of the Roman legions under Titus before Vespasian would have time to negotiate any treaty, and well before the middle of the week abomination as demanded by the prophecy.

So the 'he' in 9:27 would have to lend support to an existing covenant for a specified period of time, and 3.5 years later stop the Temple rituals and desolate the Temple with abominations. Vespasian could not fulfill all these conditions.

Actually, Vespasian did fulfill these things, as Josephus tells us. Below is some of the evidence, copied from previous posts of mine on this subject:

Flavius Josephus, The Jewish War, Preface 8: “[Vespasian] took…some of its [Galilee’s] cities by treaties, and on terms.”  III:ii:4: “…the inhabitants of Sepphoris…the largest city of Galilee…received Vespasian, the Roman general, very kindly, and readily promised that they would assist him…”  III:ix:8: “Now the seniors of the people [of Tiberius]…fell down before Vespasian, to supplicate his favor… Vespasian…accepted of their rights hands by way of security…[and] the citizens opened to him their gates…”]

During the Jewish War of 66-73 AD, Vespasian established the policy of keeping covenant with those of the Jews who rejected the rebellion against Rome, and who would confirm the long-standing Pax Romana in the Holy Land, whereby the Romans were acknowledged to be in control of all civil government.

... In 70 A.D., the “midst of the week/7 years” – no mention here of the 3½ times/1260 days prophesied elsewhere in Daniel – the Romans captured the Antonia Fortress on the northwest “corner/wing” of the Temple Mount, which provided access to the Temple complex via a narrow passage. Josephus, The Jewish War VI:i. Jewish Temple “sacrifice and (meal) offering ended” soon after, on Tammuz 17 = July 15. Ibid., VI:ii:1. The “desolating abominations” [Dan. 9:27, literal Hebrew] that ensued consisted of the most savage combat between the Romans and Jews, including instances of Jewish fratricide; piles of corpses within the Temple complex; and the Jews setting fire to the Temple’s own cloisters on the corner opposite the Roman-occupied Antonia. Ibid. VI:ii-iii. Also, the Romans began bringing their idolatrous ensigns (Aquilae) into the Temple precincts, to which sacrifices were offered. VI:iv:1; vi:1.

... Matt. 23:29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! ... 35 ...upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come upon this generation. ... 38 Behold, your house [i.e. the Temple] is left to you desolate."

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. ... 22 “For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written [only in Daniel 9:26-27] may be fulfilled."

JESUS SAID THE PROPHECY THAT WAS WRITTEN WOULD BE "FULFILLED" IN "THIS GENERATION".

DANIEL 9:26-27 IS WHERE THE PROPHECY OF JERUSALEM AND THE TEMPLE'S DESTRUCTION AND DESOLATION IS WRITTEN.

... from Josephus's account of ...of Roman customs: "1. AND now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple (24) and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them..."  War, VI.vi.1

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

21 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Actually, Vespasian did fulfill these things, as Josephus tells us. Below is some of the evidence, copied from previous posts of mine on this subject:

Flavius Josephus, The Jewish War, Preface 8: “[Vespasian] took…some of its [Galilee’s] cities by treaties, and on terms.”  III:ii:4: “…the inhabitants of Sepphoris…the largest city of Galilee…received Vespasian, the Roman general, very kindly, and readily promised that they would assist him…”  III:ix:8: “Now the seniors of the people [of Tiberius]…fell down before Vespasian, to supplicate his favor… Vespasian…accepted of their rights hands by way of security…[and] the citizens opened to him their gates…”]

During the Jewish War of 66-73 AD, Vespasian established the policy of keeping covenant with those of the Jews who rejected the rebellion against Rome, and who would confirm the long-standing Pax Romana in the Holy Land, whereby the Romans were acknowledged to be in control of all civil government.

... In 70 A.D., the “midst of the week/7 years” – no mention here of the 3½ times/1260 days prophesied elsewhere in Daniel – the Romans captured the Antonia Fortress on the northwest “corner/wing” of the Temple Mount, which provided access to the Temple complex via a narrow passage. Josephus, The Jewish War VI:i. Jewish Temple “sacrifice and (meal) offering ended” soon after, on Tammuz 17 = July 15. Ibid., VI:ii:1. The “desolating abominations” [Dan. 9:27, literal Hebrew] that ensued consisted of the most savage combat between the Romans and Jews, including instances of Jewish fratricide; piles of corpses within the Temple complex; and the Jews setting fire to the Temple’s own cloisters on the corner opposite the Roman-occupied Antonia. Ibid. VI:ii-iii. Also, the Romans began bringing their idolatrous ensigns (Aquilae) into the Temple precincts, to which sacrifices were offered. VI:iv:1; vi:1.

... Matt. 23:29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! ... 35 ...upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come upon this generation. ... 38 Behold, your house [i.e. the Temple] is left to you desolate."

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. ... 22 “For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written [only in Daniel 9:26-27] may be fulfilled."

JESUS SAID THE PROPHECY THAT WAS WRITTEN WOULD BE "FULFILLED" IN "THIS GENERATION".

DANIEL 9:26-27 IS WHERE THE PROPHECY OF JERUSALEM AND THE TEMPLE'S DESTRUCTION AND DESOLATION IS WRITTEN.

... from Josephus's account of ...of Roman customs: "1. AND now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple (24) and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them..."  War, VI.vi.1

Well, yes and no.

The problem with the historic account is that it was not fulfilled exactly as written. Vespasian did not confirm the covenant for 7 years, and only 7, as required. The Pax Romana was confirmed in perpetuity.  The Temple liturgy ceased but where is it established this occurred 3.5 years after the confirmation as required by scripture? Not the best arguments, I know, but there is another issue. Jesus told all who are in Judea to flee after they see the A of D. This did not happen after Vespasian. Vespasian kept the covenant with the Jews that condemned the revolt. Compliant Jews had no fear of reprisal. Only the rebels need to fear punishment and death. This condition will not exist during the coming A of D as all Jews will be in jeopardy. I also don't see anywhere in the histories where a Roman emperor sits in the Temple declaring himself to be god. This of course could not have happened during Vespasian's time as the Temple was destroyed in violation of the commands of the leader of the Roman Legions. 

The real A of D is yet to come.

[WilliamL]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Jesus told all who are in Judea to flee after they see the A of D.

The [singular] Abomination of Desolation is yet to come. Daniel 9:27 does not use that term. You are confusing different prophecies. The prophecy from Luke --

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

-- does not speak about the End Times, but rather about the destruction of Jerusalem in Jesus'/"this" generation. Eusebius related that the Christian Jews in Judea did in fact flee from the land across the Jordan after the Roman army from Syria surrounded Jerusalem in the Fall of 66 AD, but then retreated back to Syria.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The [singular] Abomination of Desolation is yet to come. Daniel 9:27 does not use that term. You are confusing different prophecies. The prophecy from Luke --

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

-- does not speak about the End Times, but rather about the destruction of Jerusalem in Jesus'/"this" generation. Eusebius related that the Christian Jews in Judea did in fact flee from the land across the Jordan after the Roman army from Syria surrounded Jerusalem in the Fall of 66 AD, but then retreated back to Syria.

 

Actually,during the time of the end an army consisting of gentiles will occupy Jerusalem for 42 months.This military is found in daniel luke and revelation.

 

Ps The same person who places the abomination that causes desolation is the same person who causes that military to occupy Jerusalem for those 42 months.

 

http://biblehub.com/daniel/11-31.htm

His army shall occupy Jerusalem 3 1/2 years till the people of the prince take it from them.

Then the abomination of desolation is placed.

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Shilohsfoal

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The [singular] Abomination of Desolation is yet to come. Daniel 9:27 does not use that term. You are confusing different prophecies. The prophecy from Luke --

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

-- does not speak about the End Times, but rather about the destruction of Jerusalem in Jesus'/"this" generation. Eusebius related that the Christian Jews in Judea did in fact flee from the land across the Jordan after the Roman army from Syria surrounded Jerusalem in the Fall of 66 AD, but then retreated back to Syria.

 

Except for the fact the prophecy is not one verse. The entire prophecy and all the surrounding events must come to pass. The prophecy in Luke 21 begins at v 7 and ends at v 35. Verse 32 speaks to the generation that sees everything in the prophecy. That means there will be an A of D experienced by the generation that will witness GT and the signs in the heavens, along with everything else contained in the prophecy.

[7trumpets]

On 11/16/2017 at 4:41 AM, Psalms37:4 said:

Most people believe the a/c is the one who will confirm the covenant in Daniel 9:27, and I agree with that. 

I'm interested in hearing what you guys have to say about this. But first, let's talk about who the person is who's working on a peace treaty between Israel and the Palestinians. This would be Donald Trump, however I don't think any of us believe Trump is the a/c or the person spoken of in Daniel 9:27. There could be some but I don't think Trump is the a/c.

Not looking for a debate. Just wanna hear other people's view. Is Donald Trump the one fulfilling Daniel 9:27 in the future if he successfully brokers a deal.

Trump is not the desolator. 

Dan 9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The prince that shall come is Antichrist.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

One week. This is the last seven years which completes the "seventy" of Dan_9:24; the time when action commences in connection with Daniel's "city" and "People" (i.e. Jerusalem and Israel). These have been in abeyance since Dan_9:26. Israel is "Lo-ammi" (= not my people, Hos_1:9, Hos_1:10).

The desolate is a person and should be translated desolator.    That desolator is the Antichrist which is also Satan himself.    Its not a king in Europe,  or the middle east for Satan is the star that fell to earth in Rev 9:1 where he is given the key or authority to the bottomless pit.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Where is the Holy place?  Where the temple sits in Jerusalem.   The abomination is when Satan stands in Jerusalem and proclaims that he is God and the world believes it.  (2 Ths 2:4)

Desolation is a condition, in the Hebrew it is written "on the wings of the desolator".   This is not a condition bu a entity, a person.