" Founded A Christian Nation "

[hmbld]

2 minutes ago, Yowm said:

 

JR didn't strike me as attacking anyone, just expressing his feelings and suspicions. We are entitled to our opinions, in the home of the brave and free? No?

Could be. Sounded like name calling but maybe I’m just a little too sensitive on it.  I’ll allow I even agree he is possibly right for some or many I don’t know. 

[Snow]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Shiloh,

I don`t think you read my comments very carefully bro.  

Clearly governments are responsible for law and order, however they have not been given a mandate to go to war against others. That is man`s desire for power and control over others and will continue till the Lord comes when the world armies surround Jerusalem.

The believer in the Body of Christ should have NO part in going to war (fighting) against other nations. They can of course be Chaplains, nurses, doctors, ambulance drivers, mechanics, etc looking after people and sharing their trust in Christ for eternal salvation.

No one has been given the right to go to war against others.

And believers are in this world, but NOT of it. By your strange reasoning then the boss should not pay the worker who is beating his wife or taking drugs etc for that would make him participating in the other`s wrong deeds. Nutty. It is the MOTIVATION of the heart that God is looking at, and for a believer to be a nurse or ambulance driver (& mechanic for that I was meaning) then they would be in a prime place to lead people to the Lord, as I said.

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn...Praise Jesus well said and the sentiment of i dare say most Christians...Our real enemy (satan) would like nothong better than Christians killing each other on this worlds battle foelds...

God bless you

[4LdKHVCzRDj2]

1 hour ago, Abby-Joy said:

Is she to stand by and do nothing? Is this godly persecution that she should allow her child to endure, or should she take steps to protect her child?

1 hour ago, Abby-Joy said:

I'm interested in the responses here and think no less of those who would defend their families over those who wouldn't.

In this case collecting proofs and send him to the authorities could possibly be the best thing one could do. But there are other things to consider, such as how the woman will live without financial help or other things... Still, I believe it would be far much better without him. And pray.

 

 

[Marilyn C]

8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

 

Then any rights or freedoms that you enjoy as a citizen that are kept secure by your military, which will go to war to preserve those rights and freedoms are immoral and wrong for you to enjoy.

There is nothing in the Bible that you can produce that prohibits God's people from going to war.  Nothing. 

Hi Shiloh,

Yet you missed these verses that I quoted from God`s word -

`Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man` brother I will require the life of man.`

"Whoever sheds man`s blood, by man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man...` (Gen. 9: 5 & 6)

Mmm doesn`t look to me like God is saying go to war and kill!

 

As to `rights and freedoms` secured by the military, it is to the Lord that we as believers look for our `freedom,` freedom in Christ, as Paul tells us -

`...for in Him we live and move and have our being,....` (Acts 17: 28)

`...for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content: I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.` (Phil. 4: 11 & 12)

Nations, especially great powers have military, as you say to defend themselves, that is the way of the world & not the way of the believer. A believer going to war or not is not going to change God`s judgment upon them. God deals with nations in judgment as His word says, and Christ deals with the believer in our everyday life, by the Holy Spirit guiding us to die to self.

Note, that `rights and freedom` are NOT the believers criteria for living, but to be guided by the Holy Spirit to whatever land or people He would have us witness in - some without so called rights and freedoms, but God`s work presses through all man`s obstacles and brings those who seek Him to Himself. 

Two different purposes there that God is dealing with - Nations and the Body of Christ.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, Snow said:

Hi Marilyn...Praise Jesus well said and the sentiment of i dare say most Christians...Our real enemy (satan) would like nothong better than Christians killing each other on this worlds battle foelds...

God bless you

Hi bro, Snow,

Have been thinking of you and Kwik. Great to hear you proclaiming the truth there bro, - true man of God.

Blessings, Marilyn.

[Guest shiloh357]

26 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Shiloh,

Yet you missed these verses that I quoted from God`s word -

`Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man` brother I will require the life of man.`

"Whoever sheds man`s blood, by man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man...` (Gen. 9: 5 & 6)

Mmm doesn`t look to me like God is saying go to war and kill!

Those verses are not even relevant to this discussion.  Those verses are why we are justified in having the death penalty in our jurisprudence.   I am not sure why you thought those were relevant to a discussion about war.

Quote

 

As to `rights and freedoms` secured by the military, it is to the Lord that we as believers look for our `freedom,` freedom in Christ, as Paul tells us -

`...for in Him we live and move and have our being,....` (Acts 17: 28)

`...for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content: I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.` (Phil. 4: 11 & 12)

 

And I am talking about the fact that we have military forces to protect those freedoms.  No one said that the government or the military were the source of our civil freedoms/liberties.  But the military is tasked with protecting them.

 

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Nations, especially great powers have military, as you say to defend themselves, that is the way of the world & not the way of the believer. A believer going to war or not is not going to change God`s judgment upon them. God deals with nations in judgment as His word says, and Christ deals with the believer in our everyday life, by the Holy Spirit guiding us to die to self.

The problem here is that you have pronounced a moral judgment on believers going to war, but that is simply YOUR moral position that you are projecting on Scripture.   You have provided NO biblical evidence that God prohibits Christians from either joining a military OR self-defense.    You have proclaimed YOUR opposition to it, and so far the only Scriptures you are using don't even apply to the issue.   You are trying to mold the Bible around a pacifistic viewpoint.   The Bible does not support pacifism.  Pacifism is a secular concept, not a biblical one.

Quote

 

Note, that `rights and freedom` are NOT the believers criteria for living, but to be guided by the Holy Spirit to whatever land or people He would have us witness in - some without so called rights and freedoms, but God`s work presses through all man`s obstacles and brings those who seek Him to Himself. 

Two different purposes there that God is dealing with - Nations and the Body of Christ.

Marilyn.

 

If we follow your logic, then it is immoral for any country to even have a military.   By your logic, the world was immoral for standing up against against Hitler in WW2.    All those soldiers who died to break the NAZI regime and save the world from being enslaved by Third Reich were engaging in a immoral behavior and were unpleasing to the Lord, especially those Christians who gave their lives in that effort.

By your logic, we should allow evil to simply roll over us and enslave us.   No one should violently defend a woman or child being raped, no one should stand up defend the lives of their children or their spouses, but simply allow them to die because of some very tortured interpretation of the Bible that defines "loving" one's enemies is defined as allow them to kill our families while we stand by and do nothing.

If we lived in world governed by the pacifistic approach you take, 99% of us would be either dead or living as slaves to evil.

Edited December 1, 2017 by shiloh357

[Marilyn C]

57 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Those verses are not even relevant to this discussion.  Those verses are why we are justified in having the death penalty in our jurisprudence.   I am not sure why you thought those were relevant to a discussion about war.

And I am talking about the fact that we have military forces to protect those freedoms.  No one said that the government or the military were the source of our civil freedoms/liberties.  But the military is tasked with protecting them.

 

 

Hi Shiloh,

`Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man` brother I will require the life of man.`

"Whoever sheds man`s blood, by man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man...` (Gen. 9: 5 & 6)

I said they were related to man being given the governmental function of the judicial taking of life. However....we see that God takes killing very, very seriously. God says that He will `demand a reckoning` for the taking of life. Now that means killing in daily life or in war. Man is not to go to war, but nations do for gain as the Apostle James tells us -

`Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasures that war in your members? You lust and do not have. You murder and covert and cannot obtain. YOU FIGHT AND WAR. Yet you do not have because you do not ask.

You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know the FRIENDSHIP WITH THE WORLD IS EMNITY WITH GOD? Whosoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.` (James 4: 1 - 4)

 

Marilyn.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Shiloh,

`Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man` brother I will require the life of man.`

"Whoever sheds man`s blood, by man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man...` (Gen. 9: 5 & 6)I said they were related to man being given the governmental function of the judicial taking of life. However....we see that God takes killing very, very seriously.

That is talking about murder, not simply about killing.   You are articificially broadening the reference to include killing in war.  What God prohibits is the wanton act of taking an innocent human life on purpose.  He does not condemn "killing" across the board.

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God says that He will `demand a reckoning` for the taking of life.

But that is, again, talking about demanding life for life in the case of murder.

Quote

Now that means killing in daily life or in war.

No, it does not.   You are misapplying Scripture.  You are trying to mold the Bible around your personal views and trying to make a secular concept like pacifism fit the Bible and that is a misuse of Scripture.

 

Quote

 

Man is not to go to war, but nations do for gain as the Apostle James tells us -

`Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasures that war in your members? You lust and do not have. You murder and covert and cannot obtain. YOU FIGHT AND WAR. Yet you do not have because you do not ask.

You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know the FRIENDSHIP WITH THE WORLD IS EMNITY WITH GOD? Whosoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.` (James 4: 1 - 4)

 

No, that is again, a misapplication of Scripture.   James is not using the word 'war' to refer to war between nations.  He is talking about the personal conflicts that happen between people who "war" against one another to satisfy their carnal desires.  He is talking about people who compete against each other to the point that they make enemies of each other.   These are personal "wars"  by people who live according to the spirit of the world.  

It is clear from the context that he is not dealing with national wars.  That is not what James has in view.

Again, by your logic, it was immoral for us to have fought Hitler, right?   We should have just caved into Hitler, correct?  That, in your view, was the Christian thing to do, right?

[Marilyn C]

6 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

That is talking about murder, not simply about killing.   You are articificially broadening the reference to include killing in war.  What God prohibits is the wanton act of taking an innocent human life on purpose.  He does not condemn "killing" across the board.

But that is, again, talking about demanding life for life in the case of murder.

No, it does not.   You are misapplying Scripture.  You are trying to mold the Bible around your personal views and trying to make a secular concept like pacifism fit the Bible and that is a misuse of Scripture.

 

No, that is again, a misapplication of Scripture.   James is not using the word 'war' to refer to war between nations.  He is talking about the personal conflicts that happen between people who "war" against one another to satisfy their carnal desires.  He is talking about people who compete against each other to the point that they make enemies of each other.   These are personal "wars"  by people who live according to the spirit of the world.  

It is clear from the context that he is not dealing with national wars.  That is not what James has in view.

Again, by your logic, it was immoral for us to have fought Hitler, right?   We should have just caved into Hitler, correct?  That, in your view, was the Christian thing to do, right?

Hi again bro, we so see things differently,

So are you saying that God means we shouldn`t `war,` have fights with each other BUT we can in a greater way as nation against nation?????

As to the Hitler scenario, we, believers should not get involved with nation against nation, that is for the nations to do. They are the ones lusting for power, authority, wealth and gain. Each great power of this era, (mentioned in God`s word) Great Britain, (the former British Empire) Russia, (the former Soviet Union) the European Union are all self seeking and desiring greater power and authority.

Christians fighting in wars against nations are NOT going to make a scrap of difference for nations are under the sway of the evil one as we know & here again the Apostle James has some very pertinent wisdom -

`Who is wise and understanding among you?  Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. BUT if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth.

This wisdom does not descend from above, BUT is earthly, sensual, DEMONIC. For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing will be there...` (James 3: 13 - 16)

`We are NOT of the night nor of darkness...` (Eph. 5: 5)

The nations walk & war in darkness, why `because their deeds are evil.` (John 3: 19)

 

Marilyn.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, Marilyn C said:

Hi again bro, we so see things differently,

So are you saying that God means we shouldn`t `war,` have fights with each other BUT we can in a greater way as nation against nation?????

I was simply addressing the actual issues James was talking about.  You tried to use "war" in a national sense, which is not what James is saying.   You need to find passages that actually condemn national war.  You need to find passages that prohibit Christians from joining the military, if you want to make a cogent argument.

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As to the Hitler scenario, we, believers should not get involved with nation against nation, that is for the nations to do. They are the ones lusting for power, authority, wealth and gain. Each great power of this era, (mentioned in God`s word) Great Britain, (the former British Empire) Russia, (the former Soviet Union) the European Union are all self seeking and desiring greater power and authority.

So, was it immoral for us to go to war to stop the Hitler war machine and his attempt to take over the world??   Do you think our response to Hitler was to simply let him roll over us and enslave us to the Third Reich??  

 

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Christians fighting in wars against nations are NOT going to make a scrap of difference for nations are under the sway of the evil one as we know & here again the Apostle James has some very pertinent wisdom -

`

 

Sorry but you are mishandling Scripture to force it to address what YOU want it to say, and not what is actually being said.  You have to do that because you have no legitimate argument from Scripture.