Any one want to discuss the Annihilationism vs. Traditionalism debate?

[enoob57]

I like how the Shiloh is centering upon the issue of definition in Biblical death... it is the key to the debate!

[Dennis1209]

Personally, I don't see any debate, and agree with Yowm's insight. I don't see how anyone can construe or logically argue the annihilation of an eternal soul and spirit? 

One of the things the Bible seems to be pretty clear about, that there are only three possible places created beings will eventually end up. Heaven, the Lake of Fire, or in the New Jerusalem / New Earth to be with the Lord forever. I don't buy into that annihilation theory at all. Naturally there's plenty of supporting scripture that can be quoted.

The rich man in Hades was conscience and aware, he had all his senses; sight, pain, sound, taste, touch, hearing and smell. 

The angels were created eternal beings. At the moment of conception we were created eternal beings. The Bible does not teach the annihilation of the soul or spirit, but where they go upon physical death at the Great White Throne Judgment, forever...

[JohnD]

My take from the scriptures (I don't know or care which theologian concurs with what portion of this or not)...

We are a three state being (body, spirit, soul). Just that is fodder enough for endless debates. But my point is we continue to argue one state of the three states. 

The scriptures that indicate annihilation refer to a part of us that ceases to exist in death (the soul which as I understand it has properties of both body and spirit in that our emotions etc reside there in what most refer to as the psyche [psuche in the Greek = soul] and acts as a buffer between the other two states) when the spirit departs from the body the soul ceases to exist. 

The body ceases to function mimicking sleep (then rot).

The spirit lives on fully awake and aware.

IN the resurrection all human spirits are (re)united with their bodies.

Another debate is... will that resurrection of the dead and the transformation of the living involve the upgrade Jesus experienced 2000 years ago and what believers in him will receive at the general resurrection? Namely the perfection of the body in that it will live forever and can be in the direct presence of God Almighty.

I, for one, do not believe the lost will be raised to such bodies.

They will be raised for the purpose of bowing to the Lord Jesus Christ. Their condemnation is already cemented, no trials or begging and pleading. Just bowing the knees and proclaiming Jesus Lord. And then off to the Lake of Fire where their mortal bodies will be annihilated, their souls will cease to exist, and their spirits will suffer forever very much alive. 

[JohnD]

Um, going from being able to die to never being able to die... from flesh and blood to flesh and bone.... able to enter a six sided space without using a door or window... and no telling what all else... is not an upgrade to you? Not to mention OUR going from a sinful state to a sinless state...

Well, alright.

[HarvestLabourer]

 

On 12/2/2017 at 11:40 AM, Yowm said:

I have not heard in the debate, at what time in the process of the punishment of the wicked do their souls get 'destroyed' i.e. 'annihilated'? Does Scripture even indicate a point in time?

 

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
because they have rejected knowledge, I will also reject them, that they shalt be not priests to Me:
seeing they have forgotten the law of their God, I will also forget their children.
Hosea 4:6

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.
John 6:53


Paul

Verily, verily, I say unto you,
If a man keep My saying, he shall never see death.
John 8:51

[HarvestLabourer]

10 hours ago, Yowm said:

What does that have to do with the lost's punishment in hell/lake of fire? Please explain.

Thank you, Yowm. I'll try.

You said "at what time in the process of the punishment of the wicked do their souls get 'destroyed'" 

God said "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:"

So, the "process" is gaining godly knowledge.
And at some point in the process...

And He shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.
Psalm 37:5

And eating Jesus' bread is how we gain in godly knowledge
Paul

[HarvestLabourer]

5 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Seems you are talking of those above ground, while I am talking of those who have died...no process or knowledge there.

Psa 6:4-5
(4)  Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
(5)  For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
 

Thank you, Yowm.

The way I see it, if one acquires no knowledge of Him while above ground,
they will have nothing to remember Him by after they die.

And He will say, I never knew you
Paul

 

[HarvestLabourer]

10 minutes ago, Yowm said:

So in this thread we are speaking of destroyed as in the 2nd death, not due to lack of knowledge. (see your first response to me on pg 1).

Rev 20:14
(14)  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 

Me too, Yowm.

People are still alive when they lack the knowledge of God. Yet God says they're destroyed.
Adam and Eve are still alive after eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Yet God promised, they died in the same day they ate it.

And we just have to look around the forums, and look out into the world,
to see all the hell fire. All the people drowning in the red sea.

While we stand on the sea and play the harps of God.  Don't you?
Praise the Lord.
Paul

 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,
Of every tree of the garden thou may freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 2:16-17

[HarvestLabourer]

1 hour ago, Yowm said:

Let's see if we can get this thread back on track. This is the subject matter we are to be discussing here..

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/215025-annihilationism-vs-traditionalism/

(just don't reply in soapbox).

Read that debate, then get back and tell us how you think things are going over there.

Thank you for that Yowm, I did see.

I guess that was why I was trying to get yous back on track.

Saying, annihilationism or traditionalism? is like saying, are you paying by cash or by credit card?
My answer to both of these choices is, I'm not buying it.

There is a third option. Buy into God's word.
Annihilationism and traditionalism are conceptions people have constructed.
They aren't what God says.

I thought that I was alive when I came to Jesus to partake of what He has to offer,
when I learned that I had no life in me. Jesus said it.
So I ate His flesh, and He gave me the blood,
and now I have everlasting life, even to the end of the world. 
Jesus cast hell and death into the lake.

It doesn't happen in an instant.
There isn't a moment, or a time, in the process, so to speak, when we are saved or destroyed.
Though we do have our salvation day, when we turned to the Lord.
But after having spent time in the word with Jesus, then moments come,
when we realize just how far we have come, in our understanding,
and how little the troubles of the world can now effect us. 
We begin to see it clearly in our last day,
because we kept faithful to stand by His word through the years
Paul

Whoso eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, has eternal life;
and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54
 

[inchrist]

On 02/12/2017 at 2:40 AM, Yowm said:

I have not heard in the debate, at what time in the process of the punishment of the wicked do their souls get 'destroyed' i.e. 'annihilated'? Does Scripture even indicate a point in time?

Yes parable of the richman and Lazarus.