Who/what are the 144,000 Israelites ?

[Quasar93]

59 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Yes, that is what it looks like to me. The believers went to a place called "paradise" but overall place was called Sheol or "the grave". They were separated.

Hi sis,

LOL!  That's the first time I've seen Sheol/Hell called Paradise.  I believe the only place that term is used is when Jesus told the thief on the cross who believed He was whom He said He was, "...today you will be in Paradise with me," in Lk.23:43.  There were no "believers" in Jesus, in OT times, but rather, those who were considered righteous.  You might have a look at Rom.3>25-26 that touches on this issue.

 

Quasar93 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Quasar93

[missmuffet]

Just now, Quasar93 said:

Hi sis,

LOL!  That's the first time I've seen Sheol/Hell called Paradise.  I believe the only place that term is used is when Jesus told the thief on the cross who believed He was whom He said He was, "...today you will be in Paradise with me," in Lk.23:43.  There were no "believers" in Jesus, in OT times, but rather, those who were considered righteous.  You might have a look at Rom.3>25-26 that touches on this issue.

 

Quasar93 

It is the place that the believers go which is called paradise. You know it is not just one place. They two places of the unbelievers and the believers are separate. Those in the OT they had to keep God's commandments and keep the sacrifices in order to go to paradise?

[Quasar93]

16 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

It is the place that the believers go which is called paradise. You know it is not just one place. They two places of the unbelievers and the believers are separate. Those in the OT they had to keep God's commandments and keep the sacrifices in order to go to paradise?

The Scriptural facts pertaining to Jesus use of the word, Paradise, in Lk.23:43, means heaven.  When push comes to shove, you will have to provide me Scriptural support for your views about OT use of the term Paradise used in the way you expressed.  The only possibility would be in a description of the Garden of Eden, or its restoration at the end of days.  Jesus gave us a perfect view of where the righteous souls went after they die physically, in Lk.16:19-31, that I have previously posted for you.

 

Quasar93

Edited December 8, 2017 by Quasar93

[missmuffet]

11 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

The Scriptural facts pertaining to Jesus use of the word, Paradise, in Lk.23:43, means heaven.  When push comes to shove, you will have to provide me Scriptural support for your views about OT use of the term Paradise used in the way you expressed.  The only possibility would be in a description of the Garden of Eden, or its restoration at the end of days.  Jesus gave us a perfect view of where the righteous souls went after they die physically, in Lk.16:19-31, that I have previously posted for you.

 

Quasar93

I have always heard of the believers side of Sheol referred as Abraham's bosom/Abraham's side or Paradise. No big deal really.

[Quasar93]

18 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

I have always heard of the believers side of Sheol referred as Abraham's bosom/Abraham's side or Paradise. No big deal really.

Hi sis,

Thought you might be interested in the following from gotquestions.org:

Question: "What is Abraham’s bosom?"

Answer: The term “Abraham’s bosom” is found only once in the New Testament, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), in which Jesus was teaching about was the reality of heaven and hell. “Abraham’s bosom” in this story is also translated “Abraham’s side” (NIV, ESV), “next to Abraham” (CEV), “with Abraham” (NLT), and “the arms of Abraham” (NCV). These various translations speak to the enigmatic nature of the Greek word kolpos.

All these translations are attempting to convey the sense that Lazarus went to a place of rest, contentment, and peace, almost as though Abraham (a highly revered person in Jewish history) was the protector or patron. In a sad contrast, the rich man finds himself in torment with no one to help, assist or console him. 

Contrary to some contemporary thought, the Bible does teach that both heaven and hell are real places. Each person who lives will spend eternity in one of these two places. These two destinies are portrayed in Jesus’ story. While the rich man had lived for the day and only focused on life here on earth, Lazarus endured many hardships while trusting in God. So, verses 22 and 23 are significant: “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”

Death can be thought of as separation. Physical death is the separation of our body from our soul/spirit, while spiritual death is the separation of our soul from God. Jesus taught that we ought not to fear physical death, but we should be most concerned about spiritual death. As we read in Luke 12:4-5, Jesus also said, "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!” Jesus’ use of the term “Abraham’s bosom” was a part of His teaching to focus the minds of His hearers on the fact that our choices to seek God or disregard Him here on earth literally affect where we spend eternity.

Recommended Resource: Heaven by Randy Alcorn

 

From another source:

Abraham's Bosom

Unique phrase found in a parable of Jesus describing the place where Lazarus went after death ( Luke 16:19-31 ). It is a figurative phrase that appears to have been drawn from a popular belief that the righteous would rest by Abraham's side in the world to come, an opinion described in Jewish literature at the time of Christ. The word kolpos [kovlpo"] literally refers to the side or lap of a person. Figuratively, as in this case, it refers to a place of honor reserved for a special guest, similar to its usage in John 13:23. In the case of Lazarus, the reserved place is special because it is beside Abraham, the father of all the righteous. The phrase may be synonymous to the paradise promised to the thief on the cross ( Luke 23:43 ). Together these passages support the conviction that a believer enjoys immediate bliss at the moment of physical death.

 

Quasar93

Edited December 8, 2017 by Quasar93

[missmuffet]

3 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

Hi sis,

Thought you might be interested in the following from gotquestions.org:

Question: "What is Abraham’s bosom?"

Answer: The term “Abraham’s bosom” is found only once in the New Testament, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), in which Jesus was teaching about was the reality of heaven and hell. “Abraham’s bosom” in this story is also translated “Abraham’s side” (NIV, ESV), “next to Abraham” (CEV), “with Abraham” (NLT), and “the arms of Abraham” (NCV). These various translations speak to the enigmatic nature of the Greek word kolpos.

All these translations are attempting to convey the sense that Lazarus went to a place of rest, contentment, and peace, almost as though Abraham (a highly revered person in Jewish history) was the protector or patron. In a sad contrast, the rich man finds himself in torment with no one to help, assist or console him. 

Contrary to some contemporary thought, the Bible does teach that both heaven and hell are real places. Each person who lives will spend eternity in one of these two places. These two destinies are portrayed in Jesus’ story. While the rich man had lived for the day and only focused on life here on earth, Lazarus endured many hardships while trusting in God. So, verses 22 and 23 are significant: “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”

Death can be thought of as separation. Physical death is the separation of our body from our soul/spirit, while spiritual death is the separation of our soul from God. Jesus taught that we ought not to fear physical death, but we should be most concerned about spiritual death. As we read in Luke 12:4-5, Jesus also said, "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!” Jesus’ use of the term “Abraham’s bosom” was a part of His teaching to focus the minds of His hearers on the fact that our choices to seek God or disregard Him here on earth literally affect where we spend eternity.

Recommended Resource: Heaven by Randy Alcorn

 

Quasar93

Thanks one of my favorite sites. I get a lot of criticism for using got questions on Worthy

[Quasar93]

5 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Thanks one of my favorite sites. I get a lot of criticism for using got questions on Worthy

Yes, as do I.  Here is another source about Abraham's Bosom"  From the Bible Dictionary:

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/abrahams-bosom/

Abraham's Bosom

Unique phrase found in a parable of Jesus describing the place where Lazarus went after death ( Luke 16:19-31 ). It is a figurative phrase that appears to have been drawn from a popular belief that the righteous would rest by Abraham's side in the world to come, an opinion described in Jewish literature at the time of Christ. The word kolpos [kovlpo"] literally refers to the side or lap of a person. Figuratively, as in this case, it refers to a place of honor reserved for a special guest, similar to its usage in John 13:23. In the case of Lazarus, the reserved place is special because it is beside Abraham, the father of all the righteous. The phrase may be synonymous to the paradise promised to the thief on the cross ( Luke 23:43 ). Together these passages support the conviction that a believer enjoys immediate bliss at the moment of physical death.

 

Quasar93

Edited December 8, 2017 by Quasar93

[missmuffet]

1 minute ago, Quasar93 said:

Yes, as do I.  Here is another source about Abraham's Bosom"

Abraham's Bosom

Unique phrase found in a parable of Jesus describing the place where Lazarus went after death ( Luke 16:19-31 ). It is a figurative phrase that appears to have been drawn from a popular belief that the righteous would rest by Abraham's side in the world to come, an opinion described in Jewish literature at the time of Christ. The word kolpos [kovlpo"] literally refers to the side or lap of a person. Figuratively, as in this case, it refers to a place of honor reserved for a special guest, similar to its usage in John 13:23. In the case of Lazarus, the reserved place is special because it is beside Abraham, the father of all the righteous. The phrase may be synonymous to the paradise promised to the thief on the cross ( Luke 23:43 ). Together these passages support the conviction that a believer enjoys immediate bliss at the moment of physical death.

 

Quasar93

Thanks that is good information.

[Sister]

22 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

Quote

Hi sis,

Thank you for expressing your opinions re who and what the 144,000 Israelite evangelists are.  Please let me introduce myself and the qualifications I bring to you: I am a 94 year old WWII Vet, who became a born again Christian in August of 1937, while in High School.  My studies of the Bible reach 80 years, with qualifications from Prairie Bible Institute, in Three Hills, Alberta, Canada; Liberty University, in Lynchburg, VA and Dallas Theological Seminary, in Dallas, TX, to teach the Bible.  The better part of 20 years participating on Christian discussion forums, where I founded my own site and served as administrator with two different sites for  a total of ten years.  My OP on this subject is the result of a number of years in the study pertaining to it.

Hi Quasar93

Thank you for introducing yourself to me, and for giving me your background.

Quote

You are laboring under false pretenses in assuming the 144.000 I wrote about are the remnant of Israel, when there is nothing in the OP about the remnant of Israel, which is, for example, the Great Multitude, the 144,000 will bring to the Lord.  God will place them here on erth, in the absence of the departed Church, who already belong to Him, so He can pay undivided attention on Israel and reconcile them to Himself.  What better way than to do so with their own countrymen?

I presumed you were referring the 144K to the remnants of Israel because you said this;
 

Quote

 

God will send 144,000 consisting of 12,000 Israelites from each of twelve of their tribes, that He "redeems from the earth" according to Rev.14:3. Sealing them, and they become converted believers in Jesus Christ who will take the place of the Raptured Church, to preach the Eternal Gospel in their absence, to all those left on the earth, according to Rev.7:1-8. Whom God will send here from heaven [as He will His two witnesses of Rev.11].

 

 

 

So what you are saying is that they are not the remnants of Israel, but Israelite's Christians only?, and that they replace the raptured church?

Well I agree, but not that they replace the raptured church, but that the church who is claiming they will be raptured before the tribulation events unfold, will actually be left behind to be put through the fire.....Because the picking up of the saints is at the last trumpet, the 7th which is the coming.

What I was trying to show you was that these 144K are the cream of the crop standing in the end times.  They are the faithful chosen.....the true church, made up of individuals from everywhere, who followed the Lamb.  The 144K are not at the beginning of their walk, but at the end of it and are found worthy of the Lamb to be sealed and spared from the tribulation to come.  The others (Christians) will be put put into the hands of the FP for 3 1/2 yrs, to be put through the fire because their garments are not clean.  There are spots.  The majority of the end times is not dressed for the wedding so to speak. Their robes are dirty, and they need to be made white.  The tribulation will force them to make a choice concerning the Mark of The Beast, one last chance.  They will be persecuted now for Christ's sake,...therefore will receive the wrath of the beast, in order to avoid the wrath of Lord when he judges Babylon and all who are found in her.

The 144K are those who serve Christ in spirit and in truth and they are mostly made up of gentiles who are numbered out of the tribes of the children of Israel, because they get Israel's portion first to claim....the Kingdom of God, and all that land....everything will be inherited, and they will reign with Christ over that land.

I think you also mentioned that the first will be last and the last first.  The Jews were called first, and the gentiles last.  And if a Jew follows Christ in spirit and in truth, the invitation is open also to be included in this number for there is no difference between Jew or Greek when it comes to the body of Christ - , all serve the one Lord, and have the one same faith and one same doctrine,...all are one in Christ, he made that clear, that there is no division, nor preference, because all have sinned, and all must come through that narrow door with a new heart and be prepared to stick to that path. 

God bless.

 

 

[Quasar93]

1 hour ago, Sister said:

I presumed you were referring the 144K to the remnants of Israel because you said this;
 

So what you are saying is that they are not the remnants of Israel, but Israelite's Christians only?, and that they replace the raptured church?

Well I agree, but not that they replace the raptured church, but that the church who is claiming they will be raptured before the tribulation events unfold, will actually be left behind to be put through the fire.....Because the picking up of the saints is at the last trumpet, the 7th which is the coming.

What I was trying to show you was that these 144K are the cream of the crop standing in the end times.  They are the faithful chosen.....the true church, made up of individuals from everywhere, who followed the Lamb.  The 144K are not at the beginning of their walk, but at the end of it and are found worthy of the Lamb to be sealed and spared from the tribulation to come.  The others (Christians) will be put put into the hands of the FP for 3 1/2 yrs, to be put through the fire because their garments are not clean.  There are spots.  The majority of the end times is not dressed for the wedding so to speak. Their robes are dirty, and they need to be made white.  The tribulation will force them to make a choice concerning the Mark of The Beast, one last chance.  They will be persecuted now for Christ's sake,...therefore will receive the wrath of the beast, in order to avoid the wrath of Lord when he judges Babylon and all who are found in her.

The 144K are those who serve Christ in spirit and in truth and they are mostly made up of gentiles who are numbered out of the tribes of the children of Israel, because they get Israel's portion first to claim....the Kingdom of God, and all that land....everything will be inherited, and they will reign with Christ over that land.

I think you also mentioned that the first will be last and the last first.  The Jews were called first, and the gentiles last.  And if a Jew follows Christ in spirit and in truth, the invitation is open also to be included in this number for there is no difference between Jew or Greek when it comes to the body of Christ - , all serve the one Lord, and have the one same faith and one same doctrine,...all are one in Christ, he made that clear, that there is no division, nor preference, because all have sinned, and all must come through that narrow door with a new heart and be prepared to stick to that path. 

God bless.

 

 

Hi sis,

Let's do a little review of the OP:

1. The overview of the tribulation, begins with the first of the four riders, on the white horse, who is the antichrist, in the first of seven seals; after the six seals, before the seventh seal that contains the seven trumpet judgments begins in Rev.8, God will send 144,000 consisting of 12,000 Israelites from each of twelve of their tribes, that He "redeems from the earth" [Paragraph 2 explains how they got into heaven] according to Rev.14:3. Sealing them, and they become converted believers in Jesus Christ who will take the place of the Raptured Church, to preach the Eternal Gospel in their absence, to all those left on the earth, according to Rev.7:1-8. Whom God will send here from heaven [as He will His two witnesses of Rev.11].   {Of course the 144,000 Israelite evangelists will take the place of the DEPARTED/RAPTURED Church, to preach the Gospe, to all those left behind on earth, when the Church is raptured].  

2. They were the righteous ones in OT Sheol when Jesus preached the gospel to them, according to 1 Pet.3:18-20. Then when He ascended into heaven, in Acts 1:9, He took all the righteous saints who came from OT Sheol, to heaven with with Him, when He ascended into heaven, as seen in Eph.4:7-10, fulfilling the prophecy in Ps.68:18. [During OT times, the spirits of the righteous dead went to Sheol, as did the wicked, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin, as recorded in Heb.10:3-4, Lk.16:19-25 and in Ps.49:14-15, until Jesus shed His blood and died on the cross, amplified by Paul in Rom.3:25-26.

3. The efforts of the 144,000 mission as evangelists is then revealed in the parenthetic [preview] view of the Great Multitude seen in heaven, recorded in Rev.7:9-17, who represent all of those who will be saved during the tribulation, and who are also the martyrs who participate in the first resurrection of Rev.20:4 and 6. They are the tribulation saints and are the ones who will be left behind, when the Church is raptured.  The 144,000 do not belong to the Church or they would be raptured with the Church before the tribulation begins.

4. When their work is finished, the 144,000 will be translated, and return to heaven, in Rev.14:1-5. When that happens, the earth will once again be without anyone to preach the Eternal Gospel. So God will commission an angel to do so in Rev.14:6-7.

5. Therefore, the 144,000 are all converted Israelites who take the place of the Raptured Church to preach the Gospel to all those who will be left behind when Jesus comes to take His Church with Him to our Father in heaven, as previously address above, documented in Jn.14:2-4 and 28; 1Thes.4:13-17 and 2 Thes.2:1-8.  [The meaning of the 144,000 Israelite evangelists "taking the place of the Church," pertains to that of taking the responsibility of the Church to preach the gospel, since the Church will depart and is no longer there to do so.  Therefore, the Israelite evangelists will take their place in doing so.]/ 

 

Quasar93

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