John 20:22-23

[Michael Cisneros]

14 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

A lot easier to copy and paste my thoughts on the subject.

Verse 23. Whose soever sins, &c. Cmt. on Mt 16:19 Cmt. on Mt 18:18. It is worthy of remark here that Jesus confers the same power on all the apostles. He gives to no one of them any peculiar authority. If Peter, as the Papists pretend, had been appointed to any peculiar authority, it is wonderful that the Saviour did not here hint at any such pre-eminence. This passage conclusively proves that they were invested with equal power in organizing and governing the church. The authority which he had given Peter to preach the gospel first to the Jews and the Gentiles, does not militate against this. Cmt. on Mt 16:18, Cmt. on Mt 16:19. This authority given them was full proof that they were inspired. The meaning of the passage is not that man can forgive sins--that belongs only to God (Isa 43:23), but that they should be inspired; that in founding the church, and in declaring the will of God, they should be taught by the Holy Ghost to declare on what terms, to what characters, and to what temper of mind God would extend forgiveness of sins. It was not authority to forgive individuals, but to establish in all the churches the terms and conditions on which men might be pardoned, with a promise that God would confirm all that they taught; that all might have assurance of forgiveness who would comply with those terms; and that those who did not comply should not be forgiven, but that their sins should be retained. This commission is as far as possible from the authority which the Roman Catholic claims of remitting sin and of pronouncing pardon.

{z} "Whose soever" Mt 16:19; 18:18

Matthew 16:18New International Version (NIV)

¹⁸ And I tell you that you are Peter,^[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades^[b] will not overcome it.

Footnotes:

1. Matthew 16:18 The Greek word for Peter means rock.
2. Matthew 16:18 That is, the realm of the dead

[john1]

49 minutes ago, Michael Cisneros said:

a priest can forgive sins.

Matthew chapter 9 verse 6

But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins." So he said to the paralyzed man, "Get up, take your mat and go home."

 

Unless he doesn't want us to know a priest has authority, to forgive sins.

 

 

Jesus and his apostles did many miracles to show their authority.

 

But I can't say I'm right, it's just not my belief.

[Michael Cisneros]

2 minutes ago, john1 said:

Matthew chapter 9 verse 6

But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins." So he said to the paralyzed man, "Get up, take your mat and go home."

 

Unless he doesn't want us to know a priest has authority, to forgive sins.

 

 

Jesus and his apostles did many miracles to show their authority.

 

But I can't say I'm right, it's just not my belief.

I am not saying anybody is right or wrong.   The whole point of this intellectual debate, is the debate itself.  I never intended for there to be a "winner " declared.  Simply deep, thoughtful discussion. ?

[Dennis1209]

44 minutes ago, Michael Cisneros said:

Matthew 16:18New International Version (NIV)

¹⁸ And I tell you that you are Peter,^[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades^[b] will not overcome it.

Footnotes:

1. Matthew 16:18 The Greek word for Peter means rock.
2. Matthew 16:18 That is, the realm of the dead

[Dennis' understanding of this verse] And on this 'rock', being the foundation, truth and word of God, I will build my church. The church isn't being built upon Peter by any means, but on Christ alone.

Since you brought this verse up, there seems to be a lot more to it than meets the eye. As exactly where Jesus spoke these words, what was there, and the history and Jewish belief's of exactly where he gave this address. There was absolutely nothing around there, it was a long way North from the closest settlement of Caesarea Philippi. Why did Jesus and the Apostles travel such a long way out of their way to go there. Expositors disagree whether is was Mt. Tabor or Mt. Hermon, I favor the latter, as it fits scripture and non-canonical texts. It's an interesting study and sheds some light on things with little detail in scripture. 

Edited December 30, 2017 by Dennis1209

[Michael Cisneros]

Thank you all for the very interesting discussion.  After reaching out to many people within my church family regarding this subject I must admit my understanding was flawed.  I have adjusted accordingly and am grateful for the opportunity for growth.  It is wonderful how our journey in faith is never ending.  Having a dynamic, and active relationship with our lord and savior is truly awesome.  I am blessed to be able to be part of this community.

Peace

[Your closest friendnt]

We see many examples in the life of the disciples. In one example Peter was confronted by one prominent man of that time, a spiritual man but from the idolatric coulture of that time. 

This event is as follow: 

There was this man of Roman background, a man of statute in the Roman Empire. 

This man heard about Peter and his message and the miracles and became interested to want to know if what Peter was preaching was the truth. 

As it was the custom that time, men of prominance had their advisors. 

This man's advisor felt threaten by the influence Peter had upon his employer the Roman, and became alert that he may loose favor with the Roman, if the Roman believe to Peter message. 

Without elaborating of Peter's message, this man tryed and oppose Peter but the Roman still wanted to know who had the truth. 

The people of that time were very superstitious and believers of the unseen, their beliefs and spiritual practices were all around the unseen world. 

So they were strong believers in signs and wonders, and omens. 

So as the time came for the show down, in the mind and the heart of the Roman Peter I believe guided by the Holy Spirit prayed for Jesus Christ to sign his light upon this Roman. 

This is what we do today , Peter may have bound the powers of the ocult advisor of the Roman. 

And loose the Roman from the bondage upon him. 

And that's what happen: 

A dark cloud came upon the ocult advisor of the Roman, and he was like a blind man, he was engulf in darkness and he could not see where to go. 

That was a testimony to the Roman that Peter had the light and the truth. 

In this example Peter use his powers to not forgive this man and punish him, for a propose for this man got in his way, and the mission of Peter to this Roman. 

This man's eternal destination has nothing to do to whether Peter forgive him or not. 

In a strange twist this even , it may have help him to soften his heart and he may have come to believe. 

It is by his faith that he would have been saved in the name of Jesus Christ, and not whether Peter forgave him or not. 

 

[simplejeff]

On 12/30/2017 at 4:57 PM, Michael Cisneros said:

I am not saying anybody is right or wrong.   The whole point of this intellectual debate, is the debate itself.  I never intended for there to be a "winner " declared.  Simply deep, thoughtful discussion. ?

Without truth ,  unchangeable truth, as the goal,  it is no benefit to discuss anything - only vanity leading to more vain repititions without Christ Jesus as Shepherd or Savior or Lord,  as He says always seek God's Kingdom,  every day, in everything - and everyone will be judged for every idle word ....

[Mike 2]

How about throwing this in to the mix.

Joh 9:1  As he was walking along, he observed a man who had been blind from birth. 
Joh 9:2  His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that caused him to be born blind

.At the time there was a belief (stemming from OT times) that anyone that was sick was sick as a result of sin.

Look at the Pharisees response to the man blind from birth being healed in John

 Joh 9:34  They asked him, "You were born a sinner and you are trying to instruct us?" And they threw him out.

 This was tied together when Jesus healed the man on the stretcher in Math 9 

.Mat 9:5  Which is easier: to say 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? 
Mat 9:6  But so you will know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins..." he told the paralyzed man, "Get up, pick up your stretcher, and go home!" 

Is it possible that the people that Jesus knew the disciples were going to be meeting were of this way of thinking as well?

If people believed that sickness was a result of some known or unknown sin in a persons life the disciples healing would really draw attention to what they were doing.....preaching the news of Jesus the Christ and salvation. These men were being sent out as forerunners to Jesus arriving in an area.