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Psalms37:4

When all of Israel will come to know God in a personal relationship

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On 1/6/2018 at 12:29 AM, Psalms37:4 said:

The entire prophecy of the Time of Jacob's Trouble is found in two chapters in the book of Jeremiah 30-31. It describes the ordeal of the Jewish people and their struggle from the beginning of this period at the Abomination of Desolation lasting the entire second half of the tribulation all the way to the end, the time of their redemption when God pours out His holy spirit upon all of Israel shortly into the millennium and the time of the gathering after the tribulation 

 

The prophecy foretells a time in the future when God's promise (His covenant) to Israel that all the Jewish people will receive the holy spirit by the end of the tribulation and will begin a relationship coming to know Him personally. Through the help of the holy spirit, the Jewish people will know God's laws and fully understand them perfectly, having no problem keeping and honoring those laws as they will take delight in doing God's will, Psalm 37:4.

 

Jeremiah 31:31-34 New King James Version (NKJV)

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

 

 

This promise is also revealed in parallel scriptures below. Blessed be that day when God finally sends all of Israel the holy spirit and begin a personal relationship with all Jewish people. They will all know Him and His righteousness, and their sins forgiven and remember no more. 

 

Ezekiel 39:25-29 New King James Version (NKJV)

25 “Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name— 26 after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own land and no one made them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations, 28 then they shall know that I am the Lord their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their land, and left none of them captive any longer. 29 And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord God.”

 

Isaiah 59:20-21 New King James Version (NKJV)

20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion,

And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,”

Says the Lord.

21 “As for Me,” says the Lord, “this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the Lord, “from this time and forevermore.”

 

Hebrews 10:12-18 New King James Version (NKJV)

12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

 

Hebrews 8:7-12 New King James Version (NKJV)

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

It is a sad truth, that many put off to the future what has already come. 

The word of God specifies the fate of Jacob and Israel separately and sometimes even in the same sentence differently - for a reason: Jacob refers to the Jews, and refers to Jacob as Israel after changing His name, as a sign of the change that takes place with the out pouring of the Holy Spirit, which came at Pentecost, which was given to the gentiles after the Last of the old covenant had died - Jesus was the Last.

Jesus is also the First - the first of those born of the spirit of God. That is the change pertaining to the children of Abraham, and all the chosen of God, indicated by the name change of Jacob to Israel.

Israel = "God prevails"

"It is finished."

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On 1/12/2018 at 1:01 AM, wingnut- said:

Hey retro, good to see you brother.

I just want to specifically address what you said above, because there is a glaring contradiction with scripture here.  This is what we find in Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

Now if we apply this to your timeline, we run into serious contradictions with what John records elsewhere.

Revelation 20  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

The dragon cannot be bound for the entire millennial period, and at the same time attempting to get at the woman, then when that fails, waging war on believers.  This is simply not possible, so placing this within the millennial period does not work.  Not only can the dragon not wage war when he is bound, but he cannot even deceive people from this place, as the passage in Revelation 20 specifies.

On that basis, I have to reject this.

God bless

Shabbat shalom, wingnut-.

Hmmm.... Thank you for that. You're right.

I know that (1) Yeshua` is not coming to "gather His church" and take them to "Heaven."  

And, I know that (2) His mission to return will be to rescue His people, the children of Israel, from an attempted genocide.

I further know that (3) the dragon - the original serpent in the Garden of Eden - will definitely be chained and thrown into the pit with no measured bottom and sealed away for a thousand years, but where exactly we fit into this Revelation 12 scenario, I'm not really certain.

Revelation 12:13-17 is nothing without first considering 12:1-12:

Revelation 12:1-12 (KJV)

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

First, a huge sign was seen in the sky: a woman with the sun centered in her body as apparel, the moon below her feet, and above her head a victor's wreath (Greek: stefanos) of 12 stars. Since the child hasn't yet been born in this vision, this pictures the Old Testament times. This is a constellation representing Israel. Some believe this to be the constellation Virgo, and it may be, but I don't know that I'm willing to equate the two constellations just yet.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

This huge, red dragon is often equated with the dragon of Revelation 20 and therefore represents haSatan. That also seems clear to me because of Revelation 12:7-9 below.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 

This is an AMAZING summation of Yeshua`s life! In one sentence, we see His birth, His destiny, and His ascension, following His death and resurrection. Therefore, this represents the time of Yeshua`s life and offering of the Kingdom to Israel.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

THIS is where its interpretation gets tricky. Is this looking forward into the future, even OUR future, to the last 1,260 days? Some Christians will SWEAR that this is talking about Petra, but how can anyone be sure?

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 

This war is in the sky. Micha'el, whose name is a phrase: "Miy" = "Who", "kha-" = "like", "Eel" = "God"? and his messengers fought against the drakoon (Greek for "dragon" or "lizard") and the drakoon and his messengers fought back, but they couldn't win, nor was there a place found anymore in the sky for them. The huge drakoon - the original serpent called the Slanderer and haSatan (the Enemy), who fooled the whole world - was thrown down out of the sky and into the ground, and his messengers were thrown down with him. Does haSatan have access to the sky right now? One's answer to that question will determine whether one expects this war to take place in the future or expects this war already to have taken place in the past. I believe that he does, and therefore I believe that this war is in the future.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now (Greek: Arti = "At this moment") is come salvation (rescue), and strength (Greek: dunamis, "power" from which we get our word "dynamite"), and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ (the authority of His Messiah): for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

So, it would seem that it is here in verse 10 that Yeshua` authority is given and His rescue of His people begins. And, it was just in chapter 11 that we read,

Revelation 11:15-19 (KJV)

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven (loud voices in the sky), saying, The kingdoms of this world (human government system) are become the kingdoms of our Lord (God), and of his Christ (His Messiah); and he (God) shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

So, you've helped me come to a new conclusion ("new" for me, that is): the 1,260 days is sandwiched between the "tribulation," i.e., the "Time of Ya`aqov's Trouble" (which is obviously no longer in play if Israel has "fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days"), and the Coming of the Messiah to establish His Kingdom beginning the Millennium.

I still have a bit of a dilemma, because I also remember Yeshua` saying "IMMEDIATELY after the 'tribulation' the signs of the Son of Man will appear in the skies," but then, I've also known for a while now that the Second Coming of the Messiah will TAKE SOME TIME to accomplish!

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

See, in my restructuring of the eschatological view I hold, I started at the END - at the portion upon which many premillennialists can agree, such as the Eternal State and the New Earth and the New Jerusalem. After all, ...

ETERNITY >> A THOUSAND YEARS >> a mere seven years > 3.5 years

(where ">>" means "is far greater than").

Unless the individual has allowed his imagination to run amuck, the purest of the literal, historical-grammatical interpreters of the Bible will accept that our destiny is upon a New Earth, with access to a New Jerusalem, breathing in the wonderful air of a New Sky, and we will enjoy that state throughout eternity (whatever else God may have in store for us).

Up to this point, I've allowed the others to hash out all the details of the end of the "tribulation," knowing that it would take so much time for them to hash them out and that they would argue and fight about those details so long (if not indefinitely), I could take my time forming my own opinion.

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Revelation 12 is all all about the Lord, Israel, and Satan .... nothing about the Gentile nations in this passage of scripture

12:12-17 is all about those of believing Israel who will flee into the Jordanian wilderness at the middle of the tribulation period

These will be protected there during the last half of the 70th week

Many of Israel will still be in the nations as they are at present and when Satan cannot reach those removed into the Jordanian wilderness he will  go after those in the nations

But the Lord will recover them all except for 2/3rds of Israel's population that fail to believe .... 1/3 will be saved [Zechariah 13:8-9] to enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth as mortals 

Edited by Daniel 11:36

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20 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Revelation 12 is all all about the Lord, Israel, and Satan .... nothing about the Gentile nations in this passage of scripture

12:12-17 is all about those of believing Israel who will flee into the Jordanian wilderness at the middle of the tribulation period

These will be protected there during the last half of the 70th week

Many of Israel will still be in the nations as they are at present and when Satan cannot reach those removed into the Jordanian wilderness he will  go after those in the nations

But the Lord will recover them all except for 2/3rds of Israel's population that fail to believe .... 1/3 will be saved [Zechariah 13:8-9] to enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth as mortals 

Shalom, Daniel 11:36.

But, WHY does one feel that they are going to flee into the JORDANIAN wilderness, of all places?! Y'know, Jordanians are Islamic, too! In fact, they'd just as soon see Israel destroyed as any of the others would! What are the prophetic Scriptures that suggest such a thing?

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On 1/14/2018 at 1:34 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, wingnut-.

Hmmm.... Thank you for that. You're right.

I know that (1) Yeshua` is not coming to "gather His church" and take them to "Heaven."  

And, I know that (2) His mission to return will be to rescue His people, the children of Israel, from an attempted genocide.

I further know that (3) the dragon - the original serpent in the Garden of Eden - will definitely be chained and thrown into the pit with no measured bottom and sealed away for a thousand years, but where exactly we fit into this Revelation 12 scenario, I'm not really certain.

 

Hey brother,

I agree with you on your three points above, the only minor difference would be in regards to where we fit in.  I see that group referred to as the woman's offspring, or remnant of her seed (depending on which translation) can only be believers based on the requirement that they hold to the testimony of Jesus.  I believe it also confirms Revelation 13 in regards to the timing, and the war being waged against the saints for the exact same length of time.

 

On 1/14/2018 at 1:34 AM, Retrobyter said:

Revelation 12:1-12 (KJV)

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

First, a huge sign was seen in the sky: a woman with the sun centered in her body as apparel, the moon below her feet, and above her head a victor's wreath (Greek: stefanos) of 12 stars. Since the child hasn't yet been born in this vision, this pictures the Old Testament times. This is a constellation representing Israel. Some believe this to be the constellation Virgo, and it may be, but I don't know that I'm willing to equate the two constellations just yet.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

This huge, red dragon is often equated with the dragon of Revelation 20 and therefore represents haSatan. That also seems clear to me because of Revelation 12:7-9 below.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 

This is an AMAZING summation of Yeshua`s life! In one sentence, we see His birth, His destiny, and His ascension, following His death and resurrection. Therefore, this represents the time of Yeshua`s life and offering of the Kingdom to Israel.

 

I agree with all of this, exactly how I see it as well.

 

On 1/14/2018 at 1:34 AM, Retrobyter said:

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

THIS is where its interpretation gets tricky. Is this looking forward into the future, even OUR future, to the last 1,260 days? Some Christians will SWEAR that this is talking about Petra, but how can anyone be sure?

 

I agree, this is where many begin to part ways on what is being said.  My take on Revelation 12, is that it is divided into three sections.  Verse 6 is the completion of the first section, which for the most part is referencing history until verse 6 itself.  I am convinced at this point that verse 6 is speaking about a future event.

 

On 1/14/2018 at 1:34 AM, Retrobyter said:

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 

This war is in the sky. Micha'el, whose name is a phrase: "Miy" = "Who", "kha-" = "like", "Eel" = "God"? and his messengers fought against the drakoon (Greek for "dragon" or "lizard") and the drakoon and his messengers fought back, but they couldn't win, nor was there a place found anymore in the sky for them. The huge drakoon - the original serpent called the Slanderer and haSatan (the Enemy), who fooled the whole world - was thrown down out of the sky and into the ground, and his messengers were thrown down with him. Does haSatan have access to the sky right now? One's answer to that question will determine whether one expects this war to take place in the future or expects this war already to have taken place in the past. I believe that he does, and therefore I believe that this war is in the future.

 

My answer to your question is yes, I do believe as you do that satan still has access, which I believe we have evidence for in numerous places such as Job and also from Revelation.  Having said that, I must ask the question, are we certain that this war can only be a future event?  Or is it possible that this war has been going on since before the fall of man?

I think maybe because of how we understand war, from an earthly perspective, we view this from a mortal perspective.  However, this war does not involve mortals at all, so I guess it depends on whether one believes there are casualties in this heavenly war or not.  I personally do not, and I believe there is scriptural support for that position, although it is not something I would debate because we really lack enough information.

We often hear the term spiritual warfare, so I would say it is safe to say that by in large, we recognize that something is taking place in the spiritual realm presently.  As I see it, this is the same war that has been going on for as long as God fearing men and women have inhabited the earth.  It will come to an end, and when it does the battlefield simply shifts to the earth, which at that point becomes the type of war we are more familiar with on earth, where there are casualties.

 

On 1/14/2018 at 1:34 AM, Retrobyter said:

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now (Greek: Arti = "At this moment") is come salvation (rescue), and strength (Greek: dunamis, "power" from which we get our word "dynamite"), and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ (the authority of His Messiah): for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

So, it would seem that it is here in verse 10 that Yeshua` authority is given and His rescue of His people begins.

 

I agree with you in regards to this, but maybe slightly different in that I don't tie this into the 7th trumpet.  I mentioned before that I see this in basically three segments, verse 1-6 being the first, and the second segment being verses 7-12.  Like the first segment, this segment also looks back to the past and gives some information regarding the enemy, even identifying whom the dragon is specifically.  So it ties together two tales, one of Israel, and one of satan.

Verse 10 is important, and this is how I understand what is being told.  Really, it is telling us exactly what we heard in verse 6, and what we hear throughout the final segment.  The rescue of the faithful remnant has come, as the Lord personally takes up defense of the woman, and He does so with supernatural power and might displayed.  This is also the last of heaven the enemy will ever see, he is permanently banned and we have arrived at the beginning of the end.  The war in heaven is over, and now the earth is under full siege.

Rather than tying this directly to the 7th trumpet, to me, this is directly linked to the 5th trumpet.  We read there in Revelation 9 about a star falling from heaven to earth, who holds the key to the abyss.  We also see there is a protection given to those with the seal of God on their foreheads, and that this event is the first woe.  Verse 12 above, confirms that the enemy being thrown down is a woe to the inhabitants of the earth and sea.  The seal being placed, also coincides with the protection that the woman is to receive from the enemy.

Obviously the first four trumpets would have already sounded at this point, but what we do know from scripture is that the three woes are linked to the final three trumpets.  There is nothing to indicate following the 5th trumpet the amount of time between it and the next trumpet.  We do know that when the 6th trumpet sounds, the 7th comes quickly after it though.

The popular opinion is that the period known as the great tribulation is about God's judgement, but I do not believe scripture supports that position at all, and I see that displayed in this section of Revelation 12.  The woe is because the devil is coming down, and to me it appears that the great tribulation is about what he is going to do when he gets here.  We think this world is an evil place now, but when he sets up his authority, true evil will be unleashed in full force, like the world has never seen.

Verses 13-17 just pick up from where we left off in verse 6 and finish telling the story, and tying together other events taking place, such as the war on the saints in chapter 13, which really accounts for the majority of the time period known as the great tribulation.  God's judgement comes at the end, and I also believe the OT prophecies confirm this in regards to this being done swiftly once Jesus arrives on earth.  To me this accounts for the third woe quickly following the second woe.

 

On 1/14/2018 at 1:34 AM, Retrobyter said:

So, you've helped me come to a new conclusion ("new" for me, that is): the 1,260 days is sandwiched between the "tribulation," i.e., the "Time of Ya`aqov's Trouble" (which is obviously no longer in play if Israel has "fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days"), and the Coming of the Messiah to establish His Kingdom beginning the Millennium.

 

In regards to this, at the present I am leaning toward a new possibility in regards to the time of Jacob's trouble, so I'll throw it out there and see if it makes any sense to you.  What if the reason behind this being called "Jacob's" trouble, as opposed to Israel's trouble, is because the 2/3 that will be cut off and die.  Certainly for them it is a time of trouble, right?  At this point, there was no more Jacob, God had changed his name long before this prophecy, so could the understanding be found in the name used?  I'm not dogmatic about it or anything, just something that has been on my mind recently.  Do you think that this could be reason?  Or can you think of any reason that this is not possible?

 

On 1/14/2018 at 1:34 AM, Retrobyter said:

I still have a bit of a dilemma, because I also remember Yeshua` saying "IMMEDIATELY after the 'tribulation' the signs of the Son of Man will appear in the skies," but then, I've also known for a while now that the Second Coming of the Messiah will TAKE SOME TIME to accomplish!

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

I agree that the Second Coming is a process, which I believe begins from the moment the devil is cast down to the earth.  Once the war in heaven is won, the focus will shift to the earth, and most likely this is when preparations are made to begin the return of the King.  To me, the tribulation of those days ends when the war against the saints is over, and that will coincide with the Lord appearing in the sky.  At this point satan has to gather his troops for the battle of Armageddon, which also takes time.  Then comes the swift judgement, at the battle of Armageddon, which is precisely where and when scripture declares "Behold, I come as a thief".

 

On 1/14/2018 at 1:34 AM, Retrobyter said:

See, in my restructuring of the eschatological view I hold, I started at the END - at the portion upon which many premillennialists can agree, such as the Eternal State and the New Earth and the New Jerusalem. After all, ...

ETERNITY >> A THOUSAND YEARS >> a mere seven years > 3.5 years

(where ">>" means "is far greater than").

 

I didn't necessarily start at the end, but near it I suppose.  For me, I started from the point where the Second Coming takes place, and then basically I go through systematically and eliminate theories or notions that scripture does not support as possible.  So I think we have a very similar approach as far as systematic, but probably a different methodology.  I am more of an investigator type, following evidence you could say.  That's why I don't put forth theories regarding the majority of events, because most of the judgements have no information to connect to any timing.  Naturally I have thoughts about where or when some may happen, but accept that I could be completely wrong.

 

On 1/14/2018 at 1:34 AM, Retrobyter said:

Unless the individual has allowed his imagination to run amuck, the purest of the literal, historical-grammatical interpreters of the Bible will accept that our destiny is upon a New Earth, with access to a New Jerusalem, breathing in the wonderful air of a New Sky, and we will enjoy that state throughout eternity (whatever else God may have in store for us).

 

Amen to that, can hardly wait.

 

On 1/14/2018 at 1:34 AM, Retrobyter said:

Up to this point, I've allowed the others to hash out all the details of the end of the "tribulation," knowing that it would take so much time for them to hash them out and that they would argue and fight about those details so long (if not indefinitely), I could take my time forming my own opinion.

 

The wisest course of action I think.  I have stepped away from the debating myself of late, it is really pointless.  I do enjoy engaging with someone like yourself, because we can have a reasonable discussion even if we may not see eye to eye on an issue.  Outside of the things we know to be true (which we tend to agree on as far as I have noticed), neither of us are dogmatic about things that cannot be said with certainty, which are basically things scripture does not specify.  I look forward to any feedback you have.

God bless

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"But, WHY does one feel that they are going to flee into the JORDANIAN wilderness, of all places?! Y'know, Jordanians are Islamic, too! In fact, they'd just as soon see Israel destroyed as any of the others would! What are the prophetic Scriptures that suggest such a thing?"

 

Zechariah 14:1-5

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1 hour ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"But, WHY does one feel that they are going to flee into the JORDANIAN wilderness, of all places?! Y'know, Jordanians are Islamic, too! In fact, they'd just as soon see Israel destroyed as any of the others would! What are the prophetic Scriptures that suggest such a thing?"

 

Zechariah 14:1-5

Many things change with the war of Ezk 38/39. Islam may not be Islam any more. They are defeated.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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On 1/6/2018 at 3:29 AM, Psalms37:4 said:

The entire prophecy of the Time of Jacob's Trouble is found in two chapters in the book of Jeremiah 30-31. It describes the ordeal of the Jewish people and their struggle from the beginning of this period at the Abomination of Desolation lasting the entire second half of the tribulation all the way to the end, the time of their redemption when God pours out His holy spirit upon all of Israel shortly into the millennium and the time of the gathering after the tribulation 

 

The prophecy foretells a time in the future when God's promise (His covenant) to Israel that all the Jewish people will receive the holy spirit by the end of the tribulation and will begin a relationship coming to know Him personally. Through the help of the holy spirit, the Jewish people will know God's laws and fully understand them perfectly, having no problem keeping and honoring those laws as they will take delight in doing God's will, Psalm 37:4.

 

Jeremiah 31:31-34 New King James Version (NKJV)

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

 

 

This promise is also revealed in parallel scriptures below. Blessed be that day when God finally sends all of Israel the holy spirit and begin a personal relationship with all Jewish people. They will all know Him and His righteousness, and their sins forgiven and remember no more. 

 

Ezekiel 39:25-29 New King James Version (NKJV)

25 “Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name— 26 after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own land and no one made them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations, 28 then they shall know that I am the Lord their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their land, and left none of them captive any longer. 29 And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord God.”

 

Isaiah 59:20-21 New King James Version (NKJV)

20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion,

And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,”

Says the Lord.

21 “As for Me,” says the Lord, “this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the Lord, “from this time and forevermore.”

 

Hebrews 10:12-18 New King James Version (NKJV)

12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

 

Hebrews 8:7-12 New King James Version (NKJV)

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

So Jew;s will be saved just because they are Jew's?

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"So Jew;s will be saved just because they are Jew's?"

 

No .... they will be believers during the coming tribulation period

The first will be the 144000 of each tribe [Revelation 7:1-8]

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