Looking for some opinions

[Wayne222]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Yes the vision would be in present tense......because they were actually seeing it

Every time that word vision in NT greek is used in the bible

It always refers to 

the act or power of anticipating that which will or may come to be:

And given the entire context; Christ left no doubt this is about the raising of the dead - resurrection.

However your response made up only 1% of topic 

99% of your reply was made up of personal attack

That is disporportinate; in fact I could actually ask why do people like yourself come to boards like this to only focus on 1% of the topic and 99% attacking the person?

Just a friendly criticism, I don't mean any harm. I would prefer to focus on evidence and 100% on topic 

Because you do a disservice to worthy board. You don't listen to evidence. Your blind to the plain truth. It's a complete waste of time. I been where your at. I was in the church of God many years. I attending the feasts. Garner ted Armstrong gave the sermon at the feast. I kept Passover and the days of unleaven bread with HWA. I had lunch twice with David Pack the head of the restored church of God. See I was a true believer in that false doctrine.  But when I came to the knowledge of truth. I was set free from that and found Jesus as my righteousness. He is the life. Life comes only from him. We can do nothing without him being in us the source of power for all things. He is the reality which the law pointed too. When the Sabbath was kept under the old covenant it was showing our coming rest in him. We rest from our works in his righteousness.  We are freed from sin through him. The Sabbath day shows that in Jesus we have ceased from our sins. We died to sin through the death of Jesus. Because he died we died. The former seventh day Sabbath showed this. Because in the Sabbath all works stop. Even works of sin. In putting faith in Jesus we are alive in him. But dead to the world. 

[frienduff thaylorde]

3 hours ago, MorningGlory said:

How did this thread go from 'where is my grandma?' to discussing a flat earth?  Amazing.

If one speaks round earth THEY WILL COME , if one does not , STILL they will come .

 

Move over if you build it they will come .   we got a new phrase in town.   

[inchrist]

6 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

Because you do a disservice to worthy board. You don't listen to evidence. Your blind to the plain truth.  

How do you jump from immortal souls to Sabbath keeping? What on earth does sabbath keeping have any relation in evidence to prove that immortal souls is correct?

1. Since when is a testimony of a witch, evidence of fact?

2. Vision = NT Greek horama

HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 3705 hórama (a neuter noun derived from 3708 /horáō, "to see, spiritual and mentally") – a vision (spiritual seeing), focusing on the impact it has on the one beholding the vision (spiritual seeing). See 3708 (horaō).

12 Occurrences

Matthew 17:9 N-ANS
GRK: εἴπητε τὸ ὅραμα ἕως οὗ
NAS: them, saying, Tell the vision to no one
KJV: Tell the vision to no man,
INT: tell the vision until that

Acts 7:31 N-ANS
GRK: ἐθαύμαζεν τὸ ὅραμα προσερχομένου δὲ
NAS: it, he marveled at the sight; and as he approached
KJV: [it], he wondered at the sight: and
INT: marveled at the vision coming near moreover

Acts 9:10 N-DNS
GRK: αὐτὸν ἐν ὁράματι ὁ κύριος
NAS: said to him in a vision, Ananias.
KJV: the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And
INT: him in a vision the Lord

Acts 9:12 N-DNS
GRK: ἄνδρα ἐν ὁράματι Ἁνανίαν ὀνόματι
NAS: and he has seen in a vision a man
KJV: hath seen in a vision a man named
INT: a man in a vision Ananias by name

Acts 10:3 N-DNS
GRK: εἶδεν ἐν ὁράματι φανερῶς ὡσεὶ
NAS: saw in a vision an angel
KJV: He saw in a vision evidently about
INT: He saw in a vision plainly as if

Acts 10:17 N-NNS
GRK: εἴη τὸ ὅραμα ὃ εἶδεν
NAS: as to what the vision which
KJV: what this vision which
INT: might be the vision which he was

Acts 10:19 N-GNS
GRK: περὶ τοῦ ὁράματος εἶπεν αὐτῷ
NAS: was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit
KJV: thought on the vision, the Spirit said
INT: over the vision said to him

Acts 11:5 N-ANS
GRK: ἐν ἐκστάσει ὅραμα καταβαῖνον σκεῦός
NAS: I saw a vision, an object
KJV: I saw a vision, A certain
INT: in a trance a vision descending a vessel

Acts 12:9 N-ANS
GRK: ἐδόκει δὲ ὅραμα βλέπειν 
NAS: but thought he was seeing a vision.
KJV: thought he saw a vision.
INT: he thought moreover a vision he was seeing

Acts 16:9 N-NNS
GRK: καὶ ὅραμα διὰ τῆς
NAS: A vision appeared to Paul
KJV: And a vision appeared to Paul
INT: And a vision during the

Acts 16:10 N-ANS
GRK: δὲ τὸ ὅραμα εἶδεν εὐθέως
NAS: he had seen the vision, immediately
KJV: he had seen the vision, immediately
INT: moreover the vision he saw immediately

Acts 18:9 N-GNS
GRK: νυκτὶ δι' ὁράματος τῷ Παύλῳ
NAS: in the night by a vision, Do not be afraid
KJV: the night by a vision, Be not
INT: night by a vision to Paul

Please show with FACT that vision no longer means prophetic sight

 

 In putting faith in Jesus we are alive in him. But dead to the world.

Not really; the world believes in immortal souls 

Classical Greek

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ancient-soul/

Egyptology

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Egypt/egyptian_soul.htm

Islam

http://irfi.org/articles/articles_51_100/nature_of_soul.htm

Hindu 

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_death.asp

 

So no the world does not believe you are dead to them.

 

Edited January 19, 2018 by inchrist

[inchrist]

5 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

You are bearing false witness.  Nothing he said was a personal attack.  He was simply stating fact.  

There it is again....

Please show me with actual facts this time; where does it state Paul wishes to be naked (disembodied) in the presence of the Lord?

2 Cor 5:4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

 

[inchrist]

6 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

Because you do a disservice to worthy board. You don't listen to evidence. Your blind to the plain truth. It's a complete waste of time. I been where your at. I was in the church of God many years. I attending the feasts. Garner ted Armstrong gave the sermon at the feast. I kept Passover and the days of unleaven bread with HWA. I had lunch twice with David Pack the head of the restored church of God. See I was a true believer in that false doctrine.  But when I came to the knowledge of truth. I was set free from that and found Jesus as my righteousness. He is the life. Life comes only from him. We can do nothing without him being in us the source of power for all things. He is the reality which the law pointed too. When the Sabbath was kept under the old covenant it was showing our coming rest in him. We rest from our works in his righteousness.  We are freed from sin through him. The Sabbath day shows that in Jesus we have ceased from our sins. We died to sin through the death of Jesus. Because he died we died. The former seventh day Sabbath showed this. Because in the Sabbath all works stop. Even works of sin. In putting faith in Jesus we are alive in him. But dead to the world. 

Can you  also please provide facts since Christ came to fulfil the law

 

Matthew 5:17  "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them

 

How did Christ fulfil the law of necromamcy with Moses and Elijah?

[wingnut-]

On 1/16/2018 at 9:20 AM, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

I am also thinking too, I am trying to find the right passage but cannot think of the right keywords, of the graves of the dead being emptied out just before Christ's resurrection. This was the moment Sheol was emptied permanently, that is the Paradise side of it.

 

Matthew 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.

51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

 

I think this is what you were looking for.

[wingnut-]

On 1/17/2018 at 4:13 PM, inchrist said:

And that's cool, likewise spirit itself is difficult to define....this is not an easy subject.

 

Yes, anything that delves into the spiritual realm of things is difficult to grasp until we experience it I suspect.  Much like the idea of eternity, we understand the definition, we know what it means, but actually grasping it when all we know are finite things is a bit different.

 

On 1/17/2018 at 4:13 PM, inchrist said:

Immortality throughout scripture is only given at the resurrection for the righteous not before. There is no concept nor phrase of immortal soul in scripture.

 

Well, not exactly, but I think maybe where your understanding parts ways with mine is found here.

 

II Corinthians 5  For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 

 

Now, if I understand your position correctly, what you argue is that being out of our current body makes us naked.  But that is not what the passage states, look closely at verses 2 and 3.

 

4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

 

Then here in verse 4, it clears up that being out of this body or earthly tent is not being unclothed.  We are further clothed because we have the Holy Spirit.  Verse 5 goes back to what I was referring to already, the Spirit is our guarantee.

 

So we know what it means to be asleep, Paul is clear on that in his teachings, it means we are dead.  Getting back to the passage from Thessalonians, God will bring with Him those who are asleep.  He is coming from heaven.  Paul doesn't say God will gather to Him those who are asleep, he says God will bring with Him.

This doesn't align with your resurrection theory at all, because we know it is the bodies of the dead that are gathered for the resurrection.  In order for your understanding to be correct, there would have to be more resurrections, but scripture is clear that there are not.  There is only one resurrection of those in Christ to come.

 

I Corinthians 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

 

God bless

[Justin Adams]

Because it was mentioned (above)... just so people are not confused. 
You do not need to keep talking about something that has been stated as PERPETUAL.
Also, Ezekiel's millennial Sabbath is proof that Sabbath Stands Forever. It cannot be much clearer than that.

The Sign of the Sabbath
…15 'For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death. 16 So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.' 17 "It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed."

[Jaynee]

On 18/01/2018 at 11:45 AM, eileenhat said:

There are two heavens.  2nd Heaven is where the fallen angels are* (and where the stars in our sky reside).

Third Heaven is where God's throne lies (ie. where he resides with Christ, at his right hand, to this very day).

In the Bible it is said that God sits above the firmament (ie. the tent like structure that covers the earth, earth being a a flat structure)**.

It therefore is a real place that man can not see .

We can not see God since a veil was placed between us.  I have looked for exact passages and find a variety of them, but none that says exactly that.  Though I only went through 6 0r 7 of them right now.   We know from Genesis 3:15 that as curse was placed on Adam, thus all men, and that Adam and Eve were changed by their being cast from the Garden (though this 'change' is also shroud in mystery).  But all know that Adam walked with God in the Garden, but never again on earth.  Thus allowing us to understand that while God exists, we can not see him, nor fallen angels or God's angels nor see the 3rd Heaven, even with telescopes.  We just see stars in the sky.

Moses was the last person to see God, and he was changed due to it (ie. his face became bright).  That occurred on earth.

Back to your question now.  Is Heaven a place where we will physically be?

Adam was never in the 3rd Heaven and Rev. 21 also states we will not be in Heaven physically, but in New Jerusalem, on New Earth in 1,000+ years from now.

Many have visited God in his throne room, either by vision, or having been taken out of their bodies, so their souls could visit with him.

All of these visits occurred prior to Jesus's time on earth.

Therefore, it is not a place then that Humans can visit, only souls ( as Rev. 6:9 states souls were under God's throne prior to their resurrection on Earth)***.

My own testimony concurs this as God allowed me to witness 3rd Heaven in a vision a couple of years ago and it was indeed a paradise (though not one you would expect) and no human resided there.  

It has helped me understand these passages, so I assume that is the reason for this wonderful vision, as we have been conditioned against a real 3rd Heaven existing, literally.  But it is indeed 'real' and has a form (a physical reality).

*"The third heaven is mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:2. Paul says, “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.” In verse 4, Paul equates the third heaven with “paradise,” the realm where God dwells. If the third heaven is God’s dwelling place, then we could consider the second heaven to be “outer space,” the realm of the stars and planets; and the first heaven to be earth’s atmosphere, the realm of the birds and clouds."

https://www.gotquestions.org/second-heaven.html

**"King James Bible
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:" Isaiah 40:22

***"King James Bible
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

If the Bible has stated that we will be in the New Jerusalem in 1000+ years from now.. It would have still said this "100" years ago, therefore would it not be 900 years from now? Where in the Bible does it state that it will be 1000+ years from "now"? 

Just something I wonder when I see this 1000 + years statement all the time. 

[wingnut-]

11 minutes ago, Jaynee said:

If the Bible has stated that we will be in the New Jerusalem in 1000+ years from now.. It would have still said this "100" years ago, therefore would it not be 900 years from now? Where in the Bible does it state that it will be 1000+ years from "now"? 

Just something I wonder when I see this 1000 + years statement all the time. 

 

Hello Jaynee,

The thousand years comes from the book of Revelation, and John points to the starting point as to when it begins.

 

Revelation 20  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

 

Now this takes place shortly after the Second Coming, and is the period known as the Millennial kingdom.

 

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison

 

The enemy is released after this period of time, and then we have the Gog-Magog war which is the conclusion of hostilities.  After that is when we are told the New Jerusalem descends to the earth.

 

Revelation 21  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God."

 

Hope that answers your question.

God bless