Fundamental Baptist

[jc49]

7. modern day charismatic movement

Knowing what the Baptists teach, this means they are opposed to the Pentecostal denominations, and more particularly, the Pentecostal experience(Acts 2:4). They are opposed to the Book of Acts, and pretty much all of 1 Corinthians 12-14("Charisma" is the word translated "Gift" in those passages). They are opposed to it, whether they admit it or not, because those passages all teach that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with evidence of Speaking in other Tongues is for all believers, that is if they will believe in it.

Find a good church that can explain their doctrine using only "5th grade english", because that is what the Bible is written in. If they have to constantly use terms that are not in the Bible to explain their beliefs, then they are in some way in error.

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GOOD ON YOU MATE!

[jc49]

That make sense..... now it all makes sense.....

There are actually churches that just conform to the culture of which they are in? That is ludicris. How... how can one justify that... it doesn't make sense to me....

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Simple, they do what draws the biggest crowd. Bigger crowds mean more money in the tithe and offering. More money equals bigger houses and better cars, and in some cases "better" wife/husband. You can buy almost anything these days, except salvation(1 Pet. 1:18-20)

Man is inherently religious. He may not be saved, but he is religious. Now what can be "better" than a "religion" that tells you that you can live like the devil, and at the same time be saved? These "Seeker Sensitive" self styled churches tell the people what the want to hear in order to draw a bigger crowd.

1 Timothy 6:10 - For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

This blows a hole in Creflo Dollar's ministry, along with Rod Parseley, and many many others, baptist, pentecost, methodist, lutheran, etc, doesn't matter, if its "money cometh" or "saved in sin", then it is not of God.

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

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[jc49]

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

they didn't have the Holy Ghost until they spoke in tongues.

I don't read this the same way. Read it again:

1st Paul laid hands on them

2nd the Holy Ghost came on them

3rd they spoke in tongues

4th they prophesied

Just by reading what is written, as it is written, you can't make the argument that they didn't have the Holy Spirit until they spoke in tongues. Clearly the order reveals they had the Holy Spirit before they could speak in tongues. How can you receive the gifts of the spirit before receiving the spirit?

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What I meant was that when a person has the Holy Spirit they WILL speak with tongues. I worded it wrong, but tongues IS the evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit. The point is there is a definite distinction in scripture between salvation, and the infilling of the Holy Spirit. They are two seperate experriences, or events. However both are obtained by faith in Jesus Christ's finished work.

Every time in Acts when someone recieves the Holy Spirit, there is an outward evidence that must have been unique, becuase bystanders KNEW for certain that the person had recieved the Holy Spirit. three times we are specifically told it is tongues, and at least two more times it is implied to be tongues.

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[Guest yod]

they didn't have the Holy Ghost until they spoke in tongues.

you have overlooked a few things.

It takes an understanding of the Feast Days though. Shavuot (Feast of Pentecost) was the day that the Law was given on Mt Sinai to Moses yet it was pointing to the Law being written on our hearts.

When Yeshua was sacrificed on the Feast of Passover and raised on the Feast of Firstfruits, He fulfilled the prophetic meaning of these Feast days. The next feast to come was Shavuot (Feast of Weeks also known as Pentecost) and this was what they were to remain in Jerusalem waiting for.

Were the disciples "saved" when they were performing miracles before that? Maybe. I wonder about Judas. He certainly would have been going out with the rest of them, eh?

But until Pentecost, the Holy Spirit was not a permanent condition in the life of a saint. It might overshadow someone for a specific time...for a specific purpose...but the fullness of the Holy Spirit never permanently indwelled believers until it was sent for all who would believe on THAT day in Acts 2.

So those people who were baptised by John? They were doing a ritual immersion for repentance....not the baptism of faith at all because they didn't know who Yeshua was.

You can repent of being a bad boy anytime you want but without knowing Yeshua, you have only put faith in your works.

We are all sealed in the Holy Spirit from the moment we have repented AND put our faith in Yeshua. From there the Ruach (Spirit) begins to mold us into the image of His Son.

Some speak in tongues, some don't......this is the least practical of spiritual gifts to desire and I never understand why anyone would put so much importance on this. If you want to judge your brother's salvation then the fruit of the Spirit is a much better indication than the gifts....which can be faked.

But the gifts of the Spirit are for the edification of the body, not for division as you have wielded them.

[M45510G1C]

they didn't have the Holy Ghost until they spoke in tongues.

you have overlooked a few things.

It takes an understanding of the Feast Days though. Shavuot (Feast of Pentecost) was the day that the Law was given on Mt Sinai to Moses yet it was pointing to the Law being written on our hearts.

When Yeshua was sacrificed on the Feast of Passover and raised on the Feast of Firstfruits, He fulfilled the prophetic meaning of these Feast days. The next feast to come was Shavuot (Feast of Weeks also known as Pentecost) and this was what they were to remain in Jerusalem waiting for.

Were the disciples "saved" when they were performing miracles before that? Maybe. I wonder about Judas. He certainly would have been going out with the rest of them, eh?

But until Pentecost, the Holy Spirit was not a permanent condition in the life of a saint. It might overshadow someone for a specific time...for a specific purpose...but the fullness of the Holy Spirit never permanently indwelled believers until it was sent for all who would believe on THAT day in Acts 2.

So those people who were baptised by John? They were doing a ritual immersion for repentance....not the baptism of faith at all because they didn't know who Yeshua was.

You can repent of being a bad boy anytime you want but without knowing Yeshua, you have only put faith in your works.

We are all sealed in the Holy Spirit from the moment we have repented AND put our faith in Yeshua. From there the Ruach (Spirit) begins to mold us into the image of His Son.

Some speak in tongues, some don't......this is the least practical of spiritual gifts to desire and I never understand why anyone would put so much importance on this. If you want to judge your brother's salvation then the fruit of the Spirit is a much better indication than the gifts....which can be faked.

But the gifts of the Spirit are for the edification of the body, not for division as you have wielded them.

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Beautiful post, Yod

[NeTrips]

1Cr 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Without love, the gifts of the spirit are empty. When paul wrote to the Galatians he declared that the fruit of the Holy Spirit is love.

And there are examples of believers receiving the Holsy Spirit without any evidence of speaking in tongues. Acts 8 - the Samaritan beleivers received the Holy Spirit but there was no mention of tongues. Acts 9:17 no mention again of tiongues when Annanias laid hands on Saul.

[Abigailwc]

With humans, everything becomes complicated, resulting in endless arguments.

With God, all is so straightforward: simple plan, simple purpose!

[Guest yod]

you are a youngster in the Lord, aren't you? Like a bull in a china cabinet the new believer goes crashing through doctrines and have it all figured out.

I love your zeal but you will eventually learn to temper it with wisdom. In the meantime, we'll have a few lively conversations...

Now you are suggesting that a person can be a God called Apostle, and at the same time be unsaved.

Let's get the semantics right.

They weren't called Apostles until long after Shavuot when the Holy Spirit had been poured out. An Apostle establishes the church.

Until Shavuot, even the highest ranking disciples were not filled with the Holy Ghost though they were certainly given the authority of Yeshua (and the Holy Spirit) in some individual instances.

Judas was saved, called to be an Apostle, possibly even performed miracles in the Name of Jesus,

There is no way to prove that so I'd avoid making any dogmatic statements either way.

Yet never did any of them have the Holy Spirit living in them, and Jesus said so.

Now you are proving my point. This "Day of Pentecost" was a special event in world history. This sign was for Israel to see that gentiles could become adopted sons of God apart from the Torah (Law). No where does the Bible state that this sign was perpetual as evidence of receiving Yeshua as Lord.

Be careful about going farther than what is actually written and provable.

[NeTrips]

1Cr 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

[Guest yod]

So as long as we are separating people on this point I need to know which denominational position you follow

Healings of blindness

Muddites - Jesus only heals blindness with mud

Spittites - Jesus only heals blindness by making mud with spit

Touchites - Jesus would never spit on someone!!?!??! He touches their eyes.

All these people think the others heretical...and yet all are right from their perspective.