Catholic Idolatry

[Ash Tree]

I'm going to have sleep or I won't get anything done tomorrow. It's been a great discussion and although I know I haven't convinced you that the Catholic Church is true or even a good Church, I hope I've convinced you that we don't worship Mary or the saints. 

Shalom, Pax and God Bless y'all. 

[Mishael]

8 hours ago, Yowm said:

No, but it proves the importance of what is written.

Still doesn't prove Sola Scriptura.

[Mishael]

22 minutes ago, Yowm said:

I already did with ..

and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
(2Ti 3:15-17)
 

Since Scripture is sufficient for all these things what further need do we have for another authority?

I already refuted that I believe. Many claim that 2 Timothy 3:16–17 claims Scripture is sufficient as a rule of faith. But an examination of the verse in context shows that it doesn’t claim that at all; it only claims Scripture is "profitable" (Greek: ophelimos) that is, helpful. Many things can be profitable for moving one toward a goal, without being sufficient in getting one to the goal. Notice that the passage nowhere even hints that Scripture is "sufficient"—which is, of course, exactly what Protestants think the passage means. 

Point out that the context of 2 Timothy 3:16–17 is Paul laying down a guideline for Timothy to make use of Scripture and tradition in his ministry as a bishop. Paul says, "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (Greek: theopneustos = "God-breathed"), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Tim. 3:14–17). In verse 14, Timothy is initially exhorted to hold to the oral teachings—the traditions—that he received from the apostle Paul. This echoes Paul’s reminder of the value of oral tradition in 1:13–14, "Follow the pattern of the sound words which you haveheard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us" (RSV), and ". . . what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2:2). Here Paul refers exclusively to oral teaching and reminds Timothy to follow that as the "pattern" for his own teaching (1:13). Only after this is Scripture mentioned as "profitable" for Timothy’s ministry. 

The few other verses that you be brought up to "prove" the sufficiency of Scripture are the same. Not one uses the word "sufficient"—each one implies profitability or usefulness, and many are given at the same time as an exhortation to hold fast to the oral teaching of our Lord and the apostles. The thing to keep in mind is that nowhere does the Bible say, "Scripture alone is sufficient," and nowhere does the Bible imply it. 

[1to3]

11 hours ago, Mishael said:

11 hours ago, Davida said:

 

You still can't prove me wrong. By the way you guys can't even prove to me your doctrine of Sola Scriptura from the Bible itself.

 

Revelation 22

The River of Life

22 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. ² In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. ³ And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. ⁴ They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. ⁵ There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

The Time Is Near

⁶ Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.

⁷ “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

⁸ Now I, John, saw and heard^[c] these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.

⁹ Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” ¹⁰ And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. ¹¹ He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous^[e] still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

Jesus Testifies to the Churches

¹² “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. ¹³ I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”^[f]

¹⁴ Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. ¹⁵ But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

¹⁶ “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

¹⁷ And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

A Warning

¹⁸ For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; ¹⁹ and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away^[k] his part from the Book^[l] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I Am Coming Quickly

²⁰ He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”

Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

²¹ The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

 

 

John 1

The Eternal Word

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ² He was in the beginning with God. ³ All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. ⁴ In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. ⁵ And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

 

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by 1to3

[Mishael]

4 minutes ago, Yowm said:

V14  Is tied in with 15 and thus he learned since childhood From Lois and Eunice and later Paul...2 Timothy 1:5 NASB
[5] For I am mindful of the sincere faith within you, which first dwelt in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am sure that it is in you as well.

Scriptures not oral tradition is the thrust. And why are you attempting to prove your non sola scriptura view by using Scripture as your authority?

Sufficient means sufficient, nothing else needed. Unlike the Church Councils and Popedom, Scripture is God breathed. You have absolutely nothing to show for that is God breathed. What else can arrive to the level of God breathed?

 

It says scripture is profitable not sufficient. Scripture itself refutes the doctrine of Sola Scripture, sicme you only believe scripture let me prove to you that it refute your own doctrine. Also show me one verse in the whole Bible which says scripture alone is sufficient.

[Mishael]

7 minutes ago, 1to3 said:

 

Revelation 22

The River of Life

22 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. ² In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. ³ And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. ⁴ They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. ⁵ There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

The Time Is Near

⁶ Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.

⁷ “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

⁸ Now I, John, saw and heard^[c] these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.

⁹ Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” ¹⁰ And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. ¹¹ He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous^[e] still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

Jesus Testifies to the Churches

¹² “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. ¹³ I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”^[f]

¹⁴ Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. ¹⁵ But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

¹⁶ “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

¹⁷ And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

A Warning

¹⁸ For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; ¹⁹ and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away^[k] his part from the Book^[l] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I Am Coming Quickly

²⁰ He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”

Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

²¹ The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

 

 

John 1

The Eternal Word

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ² He was in the beginning with God. ³ All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. ⁴ In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. ⁵ And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

 

 

The word is Jesus Christ.

[1to3]

11 hours ago, Goldie said:

When a Catholic kneels to pray, in front of a Crucifix, a statue of Mary or even a Saint, they are NOT praying to the item in front of them. NO!

 

Dont you think God knows their heart? Their soul? Their prayer?

 

 

1 Timothy 2:5

⁵ For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

 

John 10:30

³⁰ I and My Father are one.”

 

QUOTE FROM  Goldie Dont you think God knows their heart? Their soul? Their prayer?

 

Matthew 12:46-50

Jesus’ Mother and Brothers Send for Him

⁴⁶ While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. ⁴⁷ Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”

⁴⁸ But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” ⁴⁹ And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! ⁵⁰ For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

 

ALL ADDED  book over Gods word is ADDING -on and that is going contrary to what is written  RE: ( Revelations chapter 22)

 

 

 ALSO

If Gods WORD is sufficient through Gods plan of Mercy and Grace through the blood Atonement of His only begotten Son Christ Jesus, why do Catholics believe in the need of purgatory?

ADD -ONs of the RCC

In around the year 375 AD ,  was the idea of praying to angels and dead saints=Christians.

573 AD , came the doctrine of purgatory, and in 1439 purgatory was formally declared a formal dogma of the church.

WHY?

 

Is NOT  Christ Jesus Atonement on cross for mankind sufficient?

Edited April 17, 2018 by 1to3

[Mishael]

6 minutes ago, 1to3 said:

 

1 Timothy 2:5

⁵ For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

 

John 10:30

³⁰ I and My Father are one.”

 

QUOTE FROM  Goldie Dont you think God knows their heart? Their soul? Their prayer?

 

Matthew 12:46-50

Jesus’ Mother and Brothers Send for Him

⁴⁶ While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. ⁴⁷ Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”

⁴⁸ But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” ⁴⁹ And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! ⁵⁰ For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

 

ALL ADDED  book over Gods word is ADDING -on and that is going contrary to what is written  RE: ( Revelations chapter 22)

 

 

 

 ALSO

If Gods WORD is sufficient through Gods plan of Mercy and Grace through the blood Atonement of His only begotten Son Christ Jesus, why do Catholics believe in the need of purgatory?

ADD -ONs of the RCC

In around the year 375 AD ,  was the idea of praying to angels and dead saints=christians.

573 AD , came the doctrine of purgatory   WHY?

 

 

Is NOT  Christ Jesus Atonement on cross for mankind sufficient?

Actually prayer to saints was practiced by early Christians aswell. 

Hermas:

"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]). 

 

Clement of Alexandria:

"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]). 

 

Origen:

"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]). 

 

Cyprian of Carthage:

"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]). 

[1to3]

5 minutes ago, Mishael said:

  10 minutes ago, 1to3 said:

 

1 Timothy 2:5

⁵ For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

 

John 10:30

³⁰ I and My Father are one.”

 

QUOTE FROM  Goldie Dont you think God knows their heart? Their soul? Their prayer?

 

Matthew 12:46-50

Jesus’ Mother and Brothers Send for Him

⁴⁶ While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. ⁴⁷ Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”

⁴⁸ But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” ⁴⁹ And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! ⁵⁰ For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

 

ALL ADDED  book over Gods word is ADDING -on and that is going contrary to what is written  RE: ( Revelations chapter 22)

 

 

 

 ALSO

If Gods WORD is sufficient through Gods plan of Mercy and Grace through the blood Atonement of His only begotten Son Christ Jesus, why do Catholics believe in the need of purgatory?

ADD -ONs of the RCC

In around the year 375 AD ,  was the idea of praying to angels and dead saints=christians.

573 AD , came the doctrine of purgatory   WHY?

 

 

Is NOT  Christ Jesus Atonement on cross for mankind sufficient?

Good Day Mishael;

The references you used to counter what i wrote are not written in the Holy bible.

Can you refute the written Holy bible scripture I quoted by referring to Holy Bible Scripture what is written the Holy Bible?

[Goldie]

10 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

But how do you know they are "saints"?

The Elders are holding the bowls of incense which are the prayers 'FROM' the Saints.