Catholic Idolatry

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Mishael said:

Take it up with the English dictionary 

Worship: the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity

Venerate: regard with great respect; revere.

The problem is that when you examine the prayers to Mary, they go waaaay beyond "respect."  

[Goldie]

Out of thread now. Said what i wanted. No need to keep going round in circles.

 

God bless you all

[Mishael]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

The problem is that when you examine the prayers to Mary, they go waaaay beyond "respect."  

The Bible doesn't say so:

When the angel Gabriel was sent to Mary by the Father, he greeted her, "Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). When Mary visited Elizabeth, Elizabeth exclaimed, "Of all women you are the most blessed, and blessed is the fruit of your womb" (Luke 1:41-42). So here we have the first part of the Hail Mary. St. Bernardine added the name of Jesus, clarifying who the fruit of her womb is.

The second part is in response to the first, asking Mary to pray for us and addressing her as the mother of God. Of course, Elizabeth addressed her in much the same way: “Why should I be honored with a visit from the mother of my Lord?" (Luke 1:43).

Since Gabriel's words were at the request of God, those words were actually God's words. So we are honored to repeat them.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, Mishael said:

The Bible doesn't say so:

When the angel Gabriel was sent to Mary by the Father, he greeted her, "Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). When Mary visited Elizabeth, Elizabeth exclaimed, "Of all women you are the most blessed, and blessed is the fruit of your womb" (Luke 1:41-42). So here we have the first part of the Hail Mary. St. Bernardine added the name of Jesus, clarifying who the fruit of her womb is.

The second part is in response to the first, asking Mary to pray for us and addressing her as the mother of God. Of course, Elizabeth addressed her in much the same way: “Why should I be honored with a visit from the mother of my Lord?" (Luke 1:43).

Since Gabriel's words were at the request of God, those words were actually God's words. So we are honored to repeat them.

No, when one examines Catholic prayers to Mary they are more than asking for help.     That is also a mistranslation.  The phrase full of grace from the Greek is actually "highly favored."  

[Mishael]

7 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

No, when one examines Catholic prayers to Mary they are more than asking for help.     That is also a mistranslation.  The phrase full of grace from the Greek is actually "highly favored."  

Then should I recite it in Greek? 

[Mishael]

In Luke 1:28, the word that the angel uses is kecharitomene. So its not literally "full of grace," but its root word is the Greek verb "to give grace" (charitoo). The word is the past perfect tense, meaning that the action of giving grace has already occurred. It was not something that was about to happen to her but something that has already been accomplished. The word was also used as a title. The angel did not say, "Hail Mary, you are kecharitomene" but rather, "Hail kecharitomene." Therefore the word is not simply an action but an identity.

[enoob57]

32 minutes ago, Mishael said:

The Bible doesn't say so:

When the angel Gabriel was sent to Mary by the Father, he greeted her, "Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). When Mary visited Elizabeth, Elizabeth exclaimed, "Of all women you are the most blessed, and blessed is the fruit of your womb" (Luke 1:41-42). So here we have the first part of the Hail Mary. St. Bernardine added the name of Jesus, clarifying who the fruit of her womb is.

The second part is in response to the first, asking Mary to pray for us and addressing her as the mother of God. Of course, Elizabeth addressed her in much the same way: “Why should I be honored with a visit from the mother of my Lord?" (Luke 1:43).

Since Gabriel's words were at the request of God, those words were actually God's words. So we are honored to repeat them.

No you are honored to lift the created thing up to be god... but God has no creator and in Him alone God directs mediation between created and God period.
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV)
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
[6] Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
you guys hide in platitudes and traditions but you have written enough down that you are documented in your vagaries and what you truly believe

Mediatrix/CoRedemptrix
  Pope Leo XIII makes these statements: 'When Mary offered herself completely to God together with her Son in the temple,
she was already sharing with him the painful atonement on behalf of the human race...(at the foot of the cross) she was a
co-worker with Christ in His expiation for mankind and she offered up her Son to the divine justice dying with him in her heart'
(Jucunda semper). Pope Benedict XV says: 'Thus she (Mary) suffered and all but died along with her Son suffering and dying - thus
for the salvation of men she abdicated the rights of a mother toward her son, and insofar as it was hers to do, she immolated the
Son to placate God's justice, so that she herself may justly be said to have redeemed together with Christ the human race'
(De Corredemptione). Cited by Juniper Carol, Ed., Mariology (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1957), Volume I, pp. 383, 37).

Ludwig Ott states: 'Mary, by her spiritual entering into the sacrifice of her Divine Son for men,
made atonement for the sins of men, and (de congruo) merited the application of the redemptive
grace of Christ. In this manner she co-operates in the subjective redemption of mankind'
(Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford: Tan, 1974), p. 213).

 

 

[Mishael]

52 minutes ago, Yowm said:

It also says 'complete' hence, nothing more needed.

You never answered my question, "What does Rome have that is 'God breathed', that reaches the level of the Scriptures?

Doesn't say scripture alone is sufficient. Nothing reaches the leveled the scriptures I'm with you on that, but without Sacred Tradition which preserves doctrines first taught orally by Jesus to the apostles and later passed down to us through the apostles' successors, the bishops, you'd then be interpreting the words of the Bible through your own understanding.

[Mishael]

43 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

No you are honored to lift the created thing up to be god... but God has no creator and in Him alone God directs mediation between created and God period.
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV)
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
[6] Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
you guys hide in platitudes and traditions but you have written enough down that you are documented in your vagaries and what you truly believe

Mediatrix/CoRedemptrix
  Pope Leo XIII makes these statements: 'When Mary offered herself completely to God together with her Son in the temple,
she was already sharing with him the painful atonement on behalf of the human race...(at the foot of the cross) she was a
co-worker with Christ in His expiation for mankind and she offered up her Son to the divine justice dying with him in her heart'
(Jucunda semper). Pope Benedict XV says: 'Thus she (Mary) suffered and all but died along with her Son suffering and dying - thus
for the salvation of men she abdicated the rights of a mother toward her son, and insofar as it was hers to do, she immolated the
Son to placate God's justice, so that she herself may justly be said to have redeemed together with Christ the human race'
(De Corredemptione). Cited by Juniper Carol, Ed., Mariology (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1957), Volume I, pp. 383, 37).

Ludwig Ott states: 'Mary, by her spiritual entering into the sacrifice of her Divine Son for men,
made atonement for the sins of men, and (de congruo) merited the application of the redemptive
grace of Christ. In this manner she co-operates in the subjective redemption of mankind'
(Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford: Tan, 1974), p. 213).

 

 

I'm not Catholic so I'm not obliged to defend the doctrine of Co-Redemptrix. The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator. In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding. Its not exactly a prayer it's asking others to pray for you.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Mishael

[Mishael]

44 minutes ago, Davida said:

"HIGHLY FAVORED."   Just stop twisting scripture to back up your  wrong beliefs.  

I don't know how that really makes a difference. In Luke 1:28, the word that the angel uses is kecharitomene. So its not literally "full of grace," but its root word is the Greek verb "to give grace" (charitoo). The word is the past perfect tense, meaning that the action of giving grace has already occurred. It was not something that was about to happen to her but something that has already been accomplished. The word was also used as a title. The angel did not say, "Hail Mary, you are kecharitomene" but rather, "Hail kecharitomene." Therefore the word is not simply an action but an identity.