wingnut- Posted February 26, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, iamlamad said: Exactly: All authority was given to Jesus and then He said GO therefore. HOW are we to go? Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” I think the passage is fairly clear, but in case it isn't to you, who has the authority? The one giving the commands, or the one receiving them? Think about that. 3 hours ago, iamlamad said: The church has been calling it the age of grace or the church age for centuries. And you have a new idea? The truth is, "the body of Christ" never existed until after Jesus rose from the dead. Rather than address the outrageous claims you make, you try to concoct something to deflect from your inability to prove anything you say with scripture. This is a perfect example. Please show me once, where I ever claimed there is not a church age. QUOTE IT with me saying it, not you accusing me of it. Edited to add: The very issue we are discussing is the end of an age, so clearly I realize we are in AN AGE, and I also understand the terminology used for this current age is "the church age." Rather than make up straw man arguments, show where this age ends according to scripture. I have done this for you, try to do the same. 3 hours ago, iamlamad said: It's all there in scripture - but it seems you read these verses differently that most of the church. If it's there, then why are you so shy about sharing it? I am a patient man, if you want to go back to my post and address it with the scripture then we can continue discussing it. Specifically, I am anxiously awaiting you to reveal where the age ends. Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” If you would be so kind, show me where Jesus answers this question. Edited February 26, 2018 by wingnut- edited for clarification 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted February 26, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26, 2018 10 minutes ago, wingnut- said: If it's there, then why are you so shy about sharing it? I am a patient man, if you want to go back to my post and address it with the scripture then we can continue discussing it. Specifically, I am anxiously awaiting you to reveal where the age ends. Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” I agree with you. This is a perfect example of the confusion that arises from creating terminology that the Bible does not use. People have heard the term "church age" being used so much that they have just accepted it. When they come to a passage like the one above, they automatically assume it must be a reference to the "church age" that they've heard so much about. Consequently, their understanding of that verse is built on a fabrication. The bible does not use the term "church age" so there is no biblical definition of "church age". It's a man-made term and its definition comes from man. Since there is no reference in the Bible to a "church age" the above verse must refer to some other age. The point is not whether there is something that could be described as a "church age." The point is that it is a fabrication and should be avoided because it biases the reading of scripture and causes confusion. I sincerely hope everyone understands that. The best way to get a point across is to use terms that the Bible uses so that we have a common basis of understanding. Try using terms like: new covenant body of Christ the return of Christ Granted, doing so may restrict the latitude of one's creativity, but isn't that the point? Are we seeking truth? Or promoting an agenda? If it's truth we're seeking, stick to the truth. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted February 26, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26, 2018 10 minutes ago, Last Daze said: I agree with you. This is a perfect example of the confusion that arises from creating terminology that the Bible does not use. People have heard the term "church age" being used so much that they have just accepted it. When they come to a passage like the one above, they automatically assume it must be a reference to the "church age" that they've heard so much about. Consequently, their understanding of that verse is built on a fabrication. The bible does not use the term "church age" so there is no biblical definition of "church age". It's a man-made term and its definition comes from man. Since there is no reference in the Bible to a "church age" the above verse must refer to some other age. The point is not whether there is something that could be described as a "church age." The point is that it is a fabrication and should be avoided because it biases the reading of scripture and causes confusion. I sincerely hope everyone understands that. The best way to get a point across is to use terms that the Bible uses so that we have a common basis of understanding. Try using terms like: new covenant body of Christ the return of Christ Granted, doing so may restrict the latitude of one's creativity, but isn't that the point? Are we seeking truth? Or promoting an agenda? If it's truth we're seeking, stick to the truth. Amen! Dispensationalism has caused much confusion. The passage in question speaks of an age, and Jesus answers the question. There is only one place in scripture that tells us specifically when the age ends, and yet some still insist on invisibly inserting something that cannot be found in God's Word. Elevating the teaching of men above the Word, and then claiming proper exegesis, this just doesn't work for me. God bless 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted February 27, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, wingnut- said: Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” I think the passage is fairly clear, but in case it isn't to you, who has the authority? The one giving the commands, or the one receiving them? Think about that. Rather than address the outrageous claims you make, you try to concoct something to deflect from your inability to prove anything you say with scripture. This is a perfect example. Please show me once, where I ever claimed there is not a church age. QUOTE IT with me saying it, not you accusing me of it. Edited to add: The very issue we are discussing is the end of an age, so clearly I realize we are in AN AGE, and I also understand the terminology used for this current age is "the church age." Rather than make up straw man arguments, show where this age ends according to scripture. I have done this for you, try to do the same. If it's there, then why are you so shy about sharing it? I am a patient man, if you want to go back to my post and address it with the scripture then we can continue discussing it. Specifically, I am anxiously awaiting you to reveal where the age ends. Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” If you would be so kind, show me where Jesus answers this question. The age Jesus was speaking of, the JEWISH age (they were Jewish men asking this question) will end at the 7th vial. I think most believers would agree with this. What you are missing is that God INSERTED a church age into the age the disciples were living in. Israel as a nation did not accept Jesus. Did you not understand? Rom. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. God is still working on the Gentile part of this, as they are entering the church daily. But the day will soon come when the fullness of the gentiles will be done, God will remove His bride, and time will be right back where God left off with the Jews - around the time where Paul said He was going to the Gentiles. Then it will be time for Daniel's 70th week which will end up the age you are thinking of. Untold Millions of believers today understand this. Edited February 27, 2018 by iamlamad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted February 27, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27, 2018 5 hours ago, wingnut- said: Amen! Dispensationalism has caused much confusion. The passage in question speaks of an age, and Jesus answers the question. There is only one place in scripture that tells us specifically when the age ends, and yet some still insist on invisibly inserting something that cannot be found in God's Word. Elevating the teaching of men above the Word, and then claiming proper exegesis, this just doesn't work for me. God bless On the contrary, it certainly can be found. That is why most of the church believes in the dispensation of the church or if you please, the time that God is building the Body of Christ on earth. It is OK that you don't believe it. You will when you see it all come to pass. Very soon the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in, and God will take His body home. Then He can concentrate on judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted February 27, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27, 2018 7 hours ago, iamlamad said: The age Jesus was speaking of, the JEWISH age (they were Jewish men asking this question) will end at the 7th vial. Show where this is stated in scripture, a Jewish age? And FYI, they were Christian men asking the question. 7 hours ago, iamlamad said: What you are missing is that God INSERTED a church age into the age the disciples were living in. Then why is it so hard for you to find in scripture? I mean seriously, an age within an age? This is getting more absurd as we go. 7 hours ago, iamlamad said: On the contrary, it certainly can be found. If this is true, why can't I get you to post it? Scripture please? I mean seriously, I can't even get you to point out where the age ends in the Olivet Discourse. Deflection, deflection, deflection. 7 hours ago, iamlamad said: That is why most of the church believes in the dispensation of the church So by your logic, it is better to walk on the wide path than the narrow one? Matthew 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." If you want to talk numbers, which denomination has the largest number of followers? How many people follow Islam? Fragile argument, another straw man. I don't care if every other Christian on the planet chooses to believe the teaching of men, I am personally going with what Jesus had to say on the matter. I am 100% positive that He knows more about the matter than anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted February 27, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, wingnut- said: Show where this is stated in scripture, a Jewish age? And FYI, they were Christian men asking the question. Then why is it so hard for you to find in scripture? I mean seriously, an age within an age? This is getting more absurd as we go. If this is true, why can't I get you to post it? Scripture please? I mean seriously, I can't even get you to point out where the age ends in the Olivet Discourse. Deflection, deflection, deflection. So by your logic, it is better to walk on the wide path than the narrow one? Matthew 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." If you want to talk numbers, which denomination has the largest number of followers? How many people follow Islam? Fragile argument, another straw man. I don't care if every other Christian on the planet chooses to believe the teaching of men, I am personally going with what Jesus had to say on the matter. I am 100% positive that He knows more about the matter than anyone else. Did God deal with man differently before the law versus after the law? How about after Jesus rose from the dead? Did God require anything differently than during the law? On the other side of this, was man required to do anything differently before the law, after the law, and then after Christ rose from the dead? Will life on earth continue on forever with no change? Or do you expect a change when the days of great tribulation ends and Jesus returns to earth? If you expect a change, what KIND of change? Did you notice in John chapter 6 that Jesus mentioned "last day" several times? What did He mean? "Last day" of WHAT? And after that, what? A FIRST DAY? Edited February 27, 2018 by iamlamad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted February 27, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27, 2018 4 hours ago, iamlamad said: Will life on earth continue on forever with no change? Or do you expect a change when the days of great tribulation ends and Jesus returns to earth? If you expect a change, what KIND of change? Revelation 21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” 5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” This is what the new age looks like, notice the difference? Former things pass away, and all things are made new. 4 hours ago, iamlamad said: On the other side of this, was man required to do anything differently before the law, after the law, and then after Christ rose from the dead? Here is a thought, one from scripture for you. Now consider what age it is when this is spoken (being the same one in which Jesus answers the question posed in the Olivet Discourse). Matthew 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Does it say in THIS AGE and the AGES to come, or is it singular? It is singular in all my bibles, how about yours? Luke 18:29 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life.” The age to come eternal life, again, singular. Luke 20:34 And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, 36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 37 But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. 38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.” See the difference here? What age is that age He speaks of? Galatians 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,4 who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. Well, what do you make of that, not church age, but present evil age. That is the age He gave Himself to deliver us from, amazing what one can find in scripture isn't it? I Corinthians 2:6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— 10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. I am not sure it could be made any clearer, so really nothing more to say. Here I still sit and wait for the simplest of inquiries to be addressed, such as where the end of the age can be found in the Olivet Discourse, or anywhere else in scripture for that matter. Until you decide to address it, this will be the end of my responses. God bless 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted February 27, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27, 2018 1 hour ago, wingnut- said: Revelation 21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” 5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” This is what the new age looks like, notice the difference? Former things pass away, and all things are made new. Here is a thought, one from scripture for you. Now consider what age it is when this is spoken (being the same one in which Jesus answers the question posed in the Olivet Discourse). Matthew 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Does it say in THIS AGE and the AGES to come, or is it singular? It is singular in all my bibles, how about yours? Luke 18:29 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life.” The age to come eternal life, again, singular. Luke 20:34 And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, 36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 37 But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. 38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.” See the difference here? What age is that age He speaks of? Galatians 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,4 who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. Well, what do you make of that, not church age, but present evil age. That is the age He gave Himself to deliver us from, amazing what one can find in scripture isn't it? I Corinthians 2:6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— 10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. I am not sure it could be made any clearer, so really nothing more to say. Here I still sit and wait for the simplest of inquiries to be addressed, such as where the end of the age can be found in the Olivet Discourse, or anywhere else in scripture for that matter. Until you decide to address it, this will be the end of my responses. God bless I see you have found several "ages." Good. Then at least I can assume you believe in an "age." As for Matthew 24, I choose these verses as the end of one age. 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. However, this does not mention end. this verse does: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. This verse mentions "the end" but does not specify when - just what will precede it. Rev. 20 speaks of the end of the 1000 years, so that is another "age" that ends. The truth is, there are multiple "ages" in the bible: Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: Could we agree then that some of these "ages" have ended? "Age" can be defined as a period of time that ends, or forever and perpetuity of time. I don't need a specific scripture that gives a title to the period of time in which I live. I know it exists because I am IN IT. Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Did you notice the timing word? Yes, it is there: UNTIL. So the blindness will continue for a period of time (an age by Strong's definition) But when the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in, this age of blindness with end and Israel will be able to see again. If you wish for a title found in scripture, then call this age the age of blindness on Israel. I don't think it will catch on! Or call it the age of the Gentiles. The point is, one day the fullness of the Gentiles WILL come in and it will be the end of this time period of the Gentiles. Then it will be time for the JEWS. After all, Daniel said the 70th week was for HIS people. Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. Wow! One "age" ends and another begins, yet the word "age" is not written. It is doubtful we will ever agree on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted February 27, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27, 2018 It's sad when a "term search" and "copy / paste" tries to pass for exegesis. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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