Born again, a “real” birth.

[Wayne222]

2 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

What makes you so sure? 

I make questions and statements the go against the grain so  we may see the error of thinking taught by the established Church 

No one corrects me which shows there are errors. This puts me outside the click of established thinking. I would like Gideon's view

but he seems to stay  with in the click. A click Is like a wall that shuts others out even if they speak the truth. 

We know we have eternal life in christ. Not of works lest we boast. God gets all the glory. We get mercy. 

[Mike Mclees]

54 minutes ago, Yowm said:

 

I think he means a free one way ticket to eternal life...paid in advance. I wouldn't want to be caught dead outside that clique. Sometimes 'free thinkers' find them on the wrong side of the cross.

You nothing of me. Can you judge me on the wrong side of the cross. Where does it say it is free.  

 

23 minutes ago, Wayne222 said:

We know we have eternal life in christ. Not of works lest we boast. God gets all the glory. We get mercy. 

You are so right that we have mercy through faith. With out mercy there is no hope. This mercy dos not come by being set freely from sin neither can be obtained by works. Still we are set free to do good works. If thought we were set free to good works and did none would salvation be free 

Edited May 7, 2018 by Mike Mclees

[Mike Mclees]

7 minutes ago, Yowm said:

I gave you my opinion, I did not judge you.

 

Where does it say it is free?...

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
(Rom 5:15-17)

That's five times when all it needs is once.
 

 

True salvation is given freely  but if the free gift is a prize vantage car and you did nothing to take care of it would it still be free. Is not Jesus coming back to judge our works. . James " Faith without works is dead. Salvation does come without  a price, not by the law but  by the Law of the spirit. Was not Jesus a doer of good works. 

I am Not catholic nor of any denomination. Just a follower Of Christ and I lie not. 

 

[Mike Mclees]

29 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Are you young in the faith?  Even it is Jesus who keeps us the same way He gives us the FREE GIFT of salvation and that is by faith.

to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(1Pe 1:4-5)
 

Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.
(Heb 2:1)

Sure, our good works are a result of that Free Gift and that free gift is based on HIS OBEDIENCE, not ours...

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
(Rom 5:18-19)
 

 

 

With respect Yowm I am not young in the faith. I have more scripture to support what I say. How young are you In the faith? I have not told one lie and still you resist. I know how sin came into the world and I also know  the sin debt was freely paid . Jesus also gave us His Holy Spirit to live in us to help us to have a victorious life over sin..  These things are basic tenants of out faith. And there is so much more.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Mike Mclees

[Mike Mclees]

4 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Well, it would help, as a Christian in making one's case to use Scripture for their reason for holding to what they believe. Can you state your case clearly and use Scripture to back it up?

Lets start at the begging  With the thread " Borm again , a real birth. " Can you tell me what that means to you. What have been taught and what church taught you that. I have to leave awhile but be back

[Gideon]

6 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

What makes you so sure? 

I make questions and statements the go against the grain so  we may see the error of thinking taught by the established Church 

No one corrects me which shows there are errors. This puts me outside the click of established thinking. I would like Gideon's view

but he seems to stay  with in the click. A click Is like a wall that shuts others out even if they speak the truth. 

Well, when God talks to the churches in Revelation, consider:

To the church of Ephesus-

“Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

         Revelation 2:4-5

Now we can argue  what removing our candlestick out of its place means, but I would not be confidant about risking my eternity on the fact I may be cut off from God. 

To the church of Sardis-

 “And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent.

If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”

          Revelation 2:16,3:1-5 

Whoa. A lot of truth here.

1) God  is indeed looking at our works, not just our prayer of salvation. He expects fruit. 

2) As to walking with Him in white, a prayer of salvation guarantees nothing. It is those who have not defleid their garments who will be deemed worthy  of doing so.

3) perhaps the most eye opening, He wrote our names into the lamb’s book of life, and He can blot the out. 

To the church of Laodecia-

“I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.”

         Revelation 3:15-16, 19

God looks at the treasure in our hearts, and whether or not we are passionate fro Him above all else, including us.  

Throw in verses like Paul’s “I keep my body under lest after preaching to others, I myself might become a castaway.”

and “He that endure to the  end, the same shall be saved.” 

and “Behold the goodness and the severity of God. On them which fell, severity, but towards  tho goodness, IF you continue in His goodness. Otherwise thou also shall be cut off”

 And what do we make of this? Is there any other interpretation other than the truth they we can indeed lose our salvation if our eyes are not fixed on Jesus?

Now with that said, how can we have peace and assurance if that is so? How do we avoid what seems like the only logical alternative if these verses be true? And what is that? That we must work for our salvation, which is legalism, which definitelly is not the answer. 

How do we avoid turning the grace of God into lasciviousness on one hand, or drifting to the other extreme of making our salvation legalistic works we must do our we will be cut off?

There is a way where there is no conflict between faith alone and faith plus works. There is a place where we have total security? Where we do produce fruits... guaranteed. Where we keep our eyes fixed on Him, no matter the situation. It is the place of which I have been sharing. And what is this place? Putting on our new nature by faith alone.

Why is this the answer that gives us the assurance we need, and as well, insures we walk pleasing to Him in full obedience? Because when we have reckoned our old nature as dead, and by faith believed we are new creatures, it is in this amazing place that God causes us to obey Him, to stay close t oHim, to always grow up into Him in all things. 

There is ZERO security as long  as we are walking in our old natures. Why? Because the real danger of sin is that is hardens hearts and can choke out faith. We may be able to walk just fine,in our opinion, as long as the weather is fine. But there are storms on the horizon. When it comes to feeding our families, if the persecution arises where in order to continue working to put food on the table, we must deny God, will we?

Will we reason that God loves our family and wants us to be good parents and anyway, He forgives our sin so if we deny Him in order to survive, He will forgive us like He always has before, so denying Him is no biggie, because He knows we really love Him.... right? 

Those who take the mark of the beast will suffer the plagues. I pray we get that. And will we reason that we are not destined of wrath so we will be raptured and do not have to worry about that, may I remind you that there  are Christians today in other countries who are facing those choices today? Today. 

Why would anyone not want to walk in all that God has for Him? Why would we cling to our “old way is better” mantra, refusing to believe there is a place in Him where He really does keep us from falling just as He clearly promised. 

People wonder why I say we have all been asleep. We have walked in the God who forgives us, and yet have refused to believe that He is also the God who changes us into His likeness, causing us t booth will and do of His good pleasure. Trusting our own determination to not deny the Lord is dangerous indeed. Trusting that He will forgive any sin we commit in the future whether or not we even repent of it, is simply buying into the biggest lie Satan has hoisted on us. 

We NEED brand new natures that never stray. He will open up our blind eyes to the truth that His salvation provides them for us, if we will simply admit the we want them and need them desperately. Why would anyone wait, unless it is simply because we do not want to give up control of OUR lives. 

As I said, we are needing our valley of decision. 

Blessings, 

Gideon

 

[Mike Mclees]

21 hours ago, Yowm said:

That's too broad a topic offhand. You seem to have had some issues with what I have previously stated. Please state them so I can be more specific in my answers to you hopefully clearing up any misconceptions you may have on my stance.

If you have no issues with what I have stated, then why this challenge? I am weary of empty challenges (challenges that are just for the sake of a challenge).

 

 Gideon you seem to be one who is respected and knowledgeable amongst the posters.  Many times I feel like a non entity. I am asking if you believe what I say is true. Is it because what I say is true. 

21 hours ago, Yowm said:

That's too broad a topic offhand. You seem to have had some issues with what I have previously stated. Please state them so I can be more specific in my answers to you hopefully clearing up any misconceptions you may have on my stance.

If you have no issues with what I have stated, then why this challenge? I am weary of empty challenges (challenges that are just for the sake of a challenge).

 

 Gideon you seem to be one who is respected and knowledgeable amongst the posters.  Many times I feel like a non entity. I am asking if you believe what I say is true. Is it because what I say is true. 

Gideon never answered to this 

I do no believe that one is automatically born again of the spirit at the time he confesses Christ. He is saved yes. One must come to an understanding or revelation of the spirit to be born again of the spirit. This is something Nicodemus did not understand in John 3: : Can a man go back to the womb? He had no clue what Jesus was talking about. Jesus said are you a leader of Israel and not  these thing. Jesus made 2 distinction. The spirit is spirit and the flesh is flesh. The flesh is the carnal nature of men. The carnal nature cannot grasp the tings of the spirit. The spirit which we cannot see exists even if we cannot see them. They are the unseen things of God.

We would rather be able to see feel or touch God. We like rulers who are human that we see feel and touch. Lets see what Jesus said the women at the well. 

John 4:19-24 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁹ The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

²⁰ Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

²¹ Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

²² Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

²³ But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

^{24 (}God is a Spirit) and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

This means God is not seen yet is every where. 

If one never goes to his private prayer  place alone to talk to God, he is not Born again of the spirit. No private relationship no spiritual relationship. This is a spiritual fact

Romans 8:8  Those who are of the realm of the flesh cannot please God. 

Just because one comes to Christ does not necessarily mean he is Dorn again of the spirit 

 

In the early church there were many wicked men who came into the church to corrupt true doctrine. Were they Born again of the spirit? Can you look at a stone and say it is spirit. No! 

Jesus said to the disciples He was going away but he would not leave them comfortless but he would send the Holy spirit "even the spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive  because it seeith him not, neither knoweth him. John 14:16-17

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Mike Mclees

[Mike Mclees]

Yowm my copy paste did not go well. My answer which is my answer is on page 5 post 3

[Gideon]

Mike, here is how I see it. When we are saved, we are born again. However, most people who get saved have no real brokenness for their sins, or hatred of their old nature. They do not understand that salvation is an exchange. We were slaves to the  devil, and when we get saved, we are to become slaves... servants..... to God. Not in thirty years. Right off the bat.  Jesus bought us back with His blood, and here is one even mature believers often to not truly understand.... He owns us. We are not our own and when we finally get that, shame will fill us for how we have acted. 

Would it have been better for them to be brought to the point of brokenness and desperation before they accepted The Lord as their savior? Absolutely. Why is this important? First, when we do not tell them to count the cost, then salvation becomes ‘cheap’. To truly walk as a born again person, abiding in the vine, you have to hate your old fleshly nature that would try to pass itself off as spiritual when it is actually a filthy rag in God’s eyes, amen? You ha e to lose your life to find it. 

Our current Christianity has missed all these critical things and thus, we never see the need for putting off our old nature by faith. That is what should drive us to our knees to get saved!  Sin has yet to become exceedingly sinful to us. And it must.

So, in getting back to your question, I believe when we are saved, our old natures died with Him and we are given brand new natures. BUT.... if we do not ever do what Paul told us to do in Romans 7, and by faith reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God... as His children with new natures.,  our new natures profit us nothing. Why? Because we did not mix faith with the truth of who we are. We have up til now not seen any real need to put them off. They can be religious, but they cannot abide in Him where we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. 

Now, I believe that soon, new converts will be brought to see their great need for brand new natures. But we have a mess on our hands because even among the true elect of God, they as yet cannot see who they really are because they are satisfied with running their own lives, with just “nice little sins”. But seld is self, and self must die. 

Now, let me explain why a saved person does have a new nature, albeit a nature He or she is not walking in. Because when we do see our desperate state, we can finally take what we know with our heads, that when Christ died, we died with Him, and appropriate it in an instant! Why? Because even if we have been saved twenty years and never put off our old nature, we STILL died with Christ when He died. Our ignorance has simply blinded us the the fact that we truly are new natured people. 

This is the awakening of which I speak, that the Lord has clearly shown me is coming. It is here right now for anyone tired enough of constantly failing , of having empty prayer closets. Of never bearing true spiritual fruits. But there are millions of saints that need to be awakened, and so I call it “future.”

It is  weird, because when the Lord told me of the awakening, I was so excited because I thought it would be message of hope for saints that are now struggling. What I did not expect was a backlash telling me I was a danger to listen to, because they cannot separate the real awakening from the false that Satan has had preachers promising in various churches and denominations... more of a new age thing. 

What is the difference? Life. righteousness. Holiness. Joy. Those truly awakened by God will discover the God who causes us to obey Him, because He indwells  us! We start as children of God with holy “cores” that grow outward until fruits come to the surface. The fake awakening has no need to hate ones life, or a desperation to get freed from the grip of self. They are NOT the same.

Mike, I know I am long winded, but I pray this helps. 

Blessings, 

Gids

[Mike Mclees]

3 hours ago, Gideon said:

Mike, here is how I see it. When we are saved, we are born again. However, most people who get saved have no real brokenness for their sins, or hatred of their old nature. They do not understand that salvation is an exchange. We were slaves to the  devil, and when we get saved, we are to become slaves... servants..... to God. Not in thirty years. Right off the bat.  Jesus bought us back with His blood, and here is one even mature believers often to not truly understand.... He owns us. We are not our own and when we finally get that, shame will fill us for how we have acted. 

Would it have been better for them to be brought to the point of brokenness and desperation before they accepted The Lord as their savior? Absolutely. Why is this important? First, when we do not tell them to count the cost, then salvation becomes ‘cheap’. To truly walk as a born again person, abiding in the vine, you have to hate your old fleshly nature that would try to pass itself off as spiritual when it is actually a filthy rag in God’s eyes, amen? You ha e to lose your life to find it. 

Our current Christianity has missed all these critical things and thus, we never see the need for putting off our old nature by faith. That is what should drive us to our knees to get saved!  Sin has yet to become exceedingly sinful to us. And it must.

So, in getting back to your question, I believe when we are saved, our old natures died with Him and we are given brand new natures. BUT.... if we do not ever do what Paul told us to do in Romans 7, and by faith reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God... as His children with new natures.,  our new natures profit us nothing. Why? Because we did not mix faith with the truth of who we are. We have up til now not seen any real need to put them off. They can be religious, but they cannot abide in Him where we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. 

Now, I believe that soon, new converts will be brought to see their great need for brand new natures. But we have a mess on our hands because even among the true elect of God, they as yet cannot see who they really are because they are satisfied with running their own lives, with just “nice little sins”. But seld is self, and self must die. 

Now, let me explain why a saved person does have a new nature, albeit a nature He or she is not walking in. Because when we do see our desperate state, we can finally take what we know with our heads, that when Christ died, we died with Him, and appropriate it in an instant! Why? Because even if we have been saved twenty years and never put off our old nature, we STILL died with Christ when He died. Our ignorance has simply blinded us the the fact that we truly are new natured people. 

This is the awakening of which I speak, that the Lord has clearly shown me is coming. It is here right now for anyone tired enough of constantly failing , of having empty prayer closets. Of never bearing true spiritual fruits. But there are millions of saints that need to be awakened, and so I call it “future.”

It is  weird, because when the Lord told me of the awakening, I was so excited because I thought it would be message of hope for saints that are now struggling. What I did not expect was a backlash telling me I was a danger to listen to, because they cannot separate the real awakening from the false that Satan has had preachers promising in various churches and denominations... more of a new age thing. 

What is the difference? Life. righteousness. Holiness. Joy. Those truly awakened by God will discover the God who causes us to obey Him, because He indwells  us! We start as children of God with holy “cores” that grow outward until fruits come to the surface. The fake awakening has no need to hate ones life, or a desperation to get freed from the grip of self. They are NOT the same.

Mike, I know I am long winded, but I pray this helps. 

Blessings, 

Gids

Thank you for your input 

You are right I like short right to the point answers. Jesus said flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit These are key distinction. A rock is a rock and the spirit is not seen. If one only understands what is physical can he understand the things of the spirit which we cannot see feel or touch . Yet Jesus said to the women at the well God is spirit and desires such to worship Him. So there are two dictions of worshipers in the church. ones who are carnal and ones who are of the spirit. When Jesus told Nicodemus you be born again of the Spirit it was no simple command, but an absolute truth. Jesus castigated the Pharisees for their desire to be seen of men. We see this in the RCC but they are not the only ones. This is why I say unless one goes to His prayer closet to be with Christ in the spirit he in no way can be Born again of the spirit