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Greetings again enoob57,

15 hours ago, enoob57 said:

We know through Christ God justifies sinners through all times... but were talking about how God's Word is written dealing with man and the different ways. Abraham was what is called the patriarchal period where God spoke directly to heads of households.  But the most important aspect of the dispensational system is the way God deals with people in different times and the understanding thereof :)  What I was trying to get you to realize is that God set forth the law not for salvation but condemnation because of sin... the why is evident to show no one could meet the righteous standard that is in God alone! This because repentance of being the necessary first step in being born again and God took 1400 years to show us this in OT...

I appreciate your comments, but I suggest that there is much more revealed during the period of the Law, for example the Psalms and the Prophets. These are important and remarkable portions of the Word of God. I especially like a selection of some of the Psalms and the prophecy of Isaiah. There are many quotations of these in the New Testament, and comparing the context of these in the OT and NT is very enlightening. Thus I possibly question some of the labels used by Dispensationalists. I have heard the expression Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, and I cannot agree with the few descriptions that I have read on this suggestion as they seem to suggest that the method and consequences of salvation is different before and after Mid-Acts. I believe that Acts 8:5-6,12 is a good example of the preaching of the Gospel and the response by those who heard Philip. Paul preached the same in Acts 28:31.

Kind regards Trevor

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Posted (edited)
On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 10:35 PM, TrevorL said:

Greetings again enoob57,

I appreciate your comments, but I suggest that there is much more revealed during the period of the Law, for example the Psalms and the Prophets. These are important and remarkable portions of the Word of God. I especially like a selection of some of the Psalms and the prophecy of Isaiah. There are many quotations of these in the New Testament, and comparing the context of these in the OT and NT is very enlightening. Thus I possibly question some of the labels used by Dispensationalists. I have heard the expression Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, and I cannot agree with the few descriptions that I have read on this suggestion as they seem to suggest that the method and consequences of salvation is different before and after Mid-Acts. I believe that Acts 8:5-6,12 is a good example of the preaching of the Gospel and the response by those who heard Philip. Paul preached the same in Acts 28:31.

 

Kind regards Trevor

 

There are with truth many lies here... perversions to hide the truth. However we should be able to discern these things for the independent values and continue in truth... your statement above really seals the understanding of things: They only knew of the law and their reading and comprehension would have been through that venue... We however have the complete canon of Scripture and can with that see what they could not. That is the point of dispensational dividing- God working in a particular format with man at particular times...

Edited by enoob57
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Greetings again enoob57,

19 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

There are with truth many lies here... perversions to hide the truth.

Possibly you could clarify this.

19 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

They only knew of the law and their reading and comprehension would have been through that venue

Undoubtedly we have access to the larger picture. But say an Israelite who lived in Isaiah’s day, he had most of the books up to Isaiah in our Bible and he had Isaiah’s words and Hezekiah’s example which specifically revealed the Coming Messiah.

 

Kind regards Trevor

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Just now, TrevorL said:
21 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

There are with truth many lies here... perversions to hide the truth. However we should be able to discern these things for the independent values and continue in truth...

Possibly you could clarify this.

With any view dispensational, covenantal, etc. you have off groups claim to be of but clearly pervert what that is...  

1 minute ago, TrevorL said:

Undoubtedly we have access to the larger picture. But say an Israelite who lived in Isaiah’s day, he had most of the books up to Isaiah in our Bible and he had Isaiah’s words and Hezekiah’s example which specifically revealed the Coming Messiah.

That is the point of the dispensational method of interpreting scripture seeing at that time what was revealed to them as to things of God. As you have said they were because of Isaiah looking for a Messiah only He was to set up an everlasting kingdom through law and Jew on this present earth... this was one of their major points of why Jesus couldn't be that Messiah

John 18:36

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
KJV


Their vision was skewed by not having all the facts....  as we today have been told all things and there remains no mystery in what God has planned here on the first heaven and earth that will eventually be destroyed by fire...

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Greetings again enoob57,

9 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Their vision was skewed by not having all the facts....  as we today have been told all things and there remains no mystery in what God has planned here on the first heaven and earth that will eventually be destroyed by fire...

This is where we differ. I believe that Isaiah’s prophecies will be fulfilled concerning the Kingdom and the Messiah, when Jesus returns to the earth to sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem, and will reign over Israel and the nations for 1000 years Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:35,44, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21.

 

Kind regards Trevor

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45 minutes ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again enoob57,

This is where we differ. I believe that Isaiah’s prophecies will be fulfilled concerning the Kingdom and the Messiah, when Jesus returns to the earth to sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem, and will reign over Israel and the nations for 1000 years Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:35,44, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21.

 

Kind regards Trevor

what I wrote had nothing to negate the millennial doctrine... were kind of not connecting in dialogue here :) 

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Greetings again enoob57,

4 hours ago, enoob57 said:

what I wrote had nothing to negate the millennial doctrine... were kind of not connecting in dialogue here

Yes, I agree we seem to be not connecting here.  

 

15 hours ago, enoob57 said:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. KJV

I cannot accept the suggestion that the “world” of John 18 speaks about this earth. Rather I understand the word “world” speaks of the Jewish system of things at that time. Jesus uses the same term in his prayer in John 17, on the same day:

John 17:6–10 (KJV): 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

15 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Their vision was skewed by not having all the facts....  as we today have been told all things and there remains no mystery in what God has planned here on the first heaven and earth that will eventually be destroyed by fire...

Also you speak of the first heaven and earth being destroyed by fire. Many believe that at the return of Jesus the present earth will be burnt by fire, but I believe that this is a figure for judgement, not destruction. The prophecies like Isaiah 2:1-4 give a vision of a period of judgement and then transition to the Kingdom of God. Acts 3:19-21 speak of times of refreshing and restoration with the coming of Jesus, and these times are spoken of by all the prophets. Despite some fire of judgement at his return, the net effect of Jesus’ return is times of refreshing not destruction.

15 hours ago, enoob57 said:

That is the point of the dispensational method of interpreting scripture seeing at that time what was revealed to them as to things of God. As you have said they were because of Isaiah looking for a Messiah only He was to set up an everlasting kingdom through law and Jew on this present earth... this was one of their major points of why Jesus couldn't be that Messiah

Also you seemed to dismiss the prophets in some respects, saying that the Messiah of Isaiah would not be realised.

Kind regards Trevor

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I cannot accept the suggestion that the “world” of John 18 speaks about this earth. Rather I understand the word “world” speaks of the Jewish system of things at that time. Jesus uses the same term in his prayer in John 17, on the same day:

The world is the world and nothing in the text allows for any divergence from that... in fact since Adam gave the world over to lucifer it has not been taken back yet by The Lord till His second coming 

Rev 20:1-3

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
KJV


because during the church age He is loose upon the earth

1 Peter 5:8-9

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
KJV
 

8 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Also you speak of the first heaven and earth being destroyed by fire. Many believe that at the return of Jesus the present earth will be burnt by fire, but I believe that this is a figure for judgement, not destruction. The prophecies like Isaiah 2:1-4 give a vision of a period of judgement and then transition to the Kingdom of God. Acts 3:19-21 speak of times of refreshing and restoration with the coming of Jesus, and these times are spoken of by all the prophets. Despite some fire of judgement at his return, the net effect of Jesus’ return is times of refreshing not destruction.

The Word of God is very clear on this

2 Peter 3:7

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
KJV

Isa 66:15; Dan 7:10; Mal 4:1; 2 Thess 1:8.

[snip]

2 Peter 3:7

3:7. Verses 7,10, and 12 are the only places where the New Testament depicts the future destruction of the world by fire. In the past the world was destroyed in the Flood by God's Word and by water; in the future it will be destroyed by the same Word and by fire. Having decided to judge the world (cf. 2:3-4,9,17), God is simply holding the earth on layaway. It is reserved (tethesaurismenoi, "being stored up like a treasure") for fire and kept (teroumenoi, "guarded" or "held") for judgment. Isa 66:15-16 and Mal 4:1 associated fire with the return of the Lord. References to it are also found in the Qumran literature (Dead Sea Scrolls) as well as other sources shortly before and after Christ's birth. "The day of the Lord" (2 Peter 3:10) includes the Tribulation, the Millennium, the great white throne judgment, and the destruction of the present heavens and earth. At the great white throne after the Millennium, ungodly men (i.e., the wicked dead) will be judged and then thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:11-15). This, as Peter wrote, will be their day of judgment (cf. 2 Peter 2:9) and destruction. After they are cast into fire, the heavens and the earth will be destroyed by fire. 
(from Bible Knowledge Commentary/Old Testament Copyright © 1983, 2000 Cook Communications Ministries; Bible Knowledge Commentary/New Testament Copyright © 1983, 2000 Cook Communications Ministries. All rights reserved.)[snip]
It is completely clear, by Scripture, the complete destruction and total new of creation

Rev 21:1-5

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
KJV

 

8 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Also you seemed to dismiss the prophets in some respects, saying that the Messiah of Isaiah would not be realized.

The church age was not seen by Old Testament saints....
[snip] In the previous study of premillennialism and the church, it was brought out that the church is a body of believers in this age distinct in character from the Old Testament saints. Further, it was shown that the present age is a parenthesis or a time period not predicted by the Old Testament and therefore not fulfilling or advancing the program of events revealed in the Old Testament foreview. The present study occupies itself with the positive revelation in the New Testament of the church in its character as a mystery.[snip]
https://bible.org/seriespage/20-premillennialism-and-church-mystery

 

Edited by enoob57

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Posted (edited)

Greetings again enoob57,

17 hours ago, enoob57 said:

The world is the world and nothing in the text allows for any divergence from that...

I suggest that you refer again to the way Jesus uses the word “world” (kosmos S#2889) in John 17:6,9 in its context and the following are a few more examples where Jesus uses the world to describe the Jewish world and not the physical earth:

John 15:19 (KJV): If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 17:14–16 (KJV): 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Now the earth did not hate the disciples, but the Jewish world, especially centred in the Pharisees and the Sadducees hated both Jesus and the disciples.

17 hours ago, enoob57 said:

3:7. Verses 7,10, and 12 are the only places where the New Testament depicts the future destruction of the world by fire.

I believe that destruction by fire is figurative language based in part from the concept of the altar of burnt offering, but also the burning or scattering of the chaff when Jesus returns to judge first his household and then the nations. For example the Parable of the Tares:

Matthew 13:30 (KJV): Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:41–43 (KJV): 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

17 hours ago, enoob57 said:

The church age was not seen by Old Testament saints....

There is some indication in Isaiah that Israel would fail to respond, and there is also the teaching that the preaching would go forth to the Gentiles. Firstly Israel as a whole failed to respond to the teaching of Isaiah and Jesus:

Isaiah 6:9–10 (KJV): 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

The 1st Servant Song indicates that the preaching and influence of Jesus would spread to the Gentiles:

Isaiah 42:6 (KJV): I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

These two concepts are combined in the 2nd Servant Song, where Israel fails to respond and the way is open for the Gentiles:

Isaiah 49:5–6 (KJV): 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

This particular passage is used by Paul to speak about his role as the Apostle to the Gentiles.

Kind regards Trevor

 

Edited by TrevorL

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again enoob57,

I suggest that you refer again to the way Jesus uses the word “world” (kosmos S#2889) in John 17:6,9 in its context and the following are a few more examples where Jesus uses the world to describe the Jewish world and not the physical earth:

John 15:19 (KJV): If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 17:14–16 (KJV): 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Now the earth did not hate the disciples, but the Jewish world, especially centred in the Pharisees and the Sadducees hated both Jesus and the disciples.

World is a term in the Bible that refers to different things according to context of passage... and two are displayed here: world as a system satan has brought about with the hearts of fallen people the world hath hated them and physical earth I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world.

3 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I believe that destruction by fire is figurative language based in part from the concept of the altar of burnt offering, but also the burning or scattering of the chaff when Jesus returns to judge first his household and then the nations. For example the Parable of the Tares:

Matthew 13:30 (KJV): Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:41–43 (KJV): 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. 

You may believe whatever you wish to believe but The Scriptures speak literal destruction and literal New! 

Rev 21:1

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
KJV

 

3 hours ago, TrevorL said:

There is some indication in Isaiah that Israel would fail to respond, and there is also the teaching that the preaching would go forth to the Gentiles. Firstly Israel as a whole failed to respond to the teaching of Isaiah and Jesus:

Isaiah 6:9–10 (KJV): 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

The 1st Servant Song indicates that the preaching and influence of Jesus would spread to the Gentiles:

Isaiah 42:6 (KJV): I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

These two concepts are combined in the 2nd Servant Song, where Israel fails to respond and the way is open for the Gentiles:

Isaiah 49:5–6 (KJV): 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

This particular passage is used by Paul to speak about his role as the Apostle to the Gentiles.

I did not say that prophetical utterance of the church was not there... I said they could not see what it was.

Eph 3:1-7

3 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
KJV


This really should end further discussion on this matter :) 

Edited by enoob57

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