Two trbulations and the truth about them

[Brother Duke]

3 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Rev. 20:4-6 tells us that the first resurrection only includes the Tribulation saints that died for not worshiping the beast and his image:  "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
(Rev 20:4-6)

So there will a resurrection of the saints that occurs prior to the first resurrection and that is outlined for us here: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."(1Th 4:13-17)
 

That does not make sense.  You are saying that the first resurrection is not actually the first resurrection but instead there is a pre-first resurrection?  

[Guest shiloh357]

4 minutes ago, Brother Duke said:

That does not make sense.  You are saying that the first resurrection is not actually the first resurrection but instead there is a pre-first resurrection?  

You have the resurrection of every saint that ever lived in I Thess. 4 at the rapture.   Then you have the resurrection of the Tribulation believers who were killed for their faith in Revelation 20: 4-6  that occurs about 7 or so years later.   So yes you have two distinct resurrections.    We know they are not the same because of who is said to be resurrected.  The resurrection in Rev. 20: 4-6 is more limited in scope as it only pertains to the Tribulation believers.

[Last Daze]

34 minutes ago, Davida said:

You might try to spin this favorably but it doesn't work , that is actually a type of deception. Twisting the meaning of our words & is exactly what has been done on this thread. 

I refuse to be found guilty of giving people a false hope, even if it means that they might not like me.  God knows my motive.  You don't.  And your emotional reaction and psychological projection is just that.  What's coming doesn't give half a hoot about favorable spin and neither should you.  The time to prepare is now.

[Guest shiloh357]

16 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

If you live long enough, and you indeed are Christ's, than you are one of those tribulation saints.

When you witness the confirming of the covenant, the Temple rebuilt, and the daily sacrifice and oblation being resumed you will know that you missed the pre-trib rapture (because there wasn't one). If you live a few more years after that, you will have the privileged of joining the martyred saints of history to identify with our wonderful Saviour by not loving your life even unto death.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Hallelujah

I will have either died of old age and/or will be taken up in the Rapture.   I will not be here for the Tribulation.  If you prefer to go through the Tribulation, that is between you and God.   I will not be joining you.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, Last Daze said:

I refuse to be found guilty of giving people a false hope, even if it means that they might not like me.  God knows my motive.  You don't.  And your emotional reaction and psychological projection is just that.  What's coming doesn't give half a hoot about favorable spin and neither should you.  The time to prepare is now.

No one is handing out false hope.

[Brother Duke]

15 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

You have the resurrection of every saint that ever lived in I Thess. 4 at the rapture.   Then you have the resurrection of the Tribulation believers who were killed for their faith in Revelation 20: 4-6  that occurs about 7 or so years later.   So yes you have two distinct resurrections.    We know they are not the same because of who is said to be resurrected.  The resurrection in Rev. 20: 4-6 is more limited in scope as it only pertains to the Tribulation believers.

Where is the scriptural proof of two different first resurrections?  The bible is pretty clear about two resurrections and not a 3rd extra resurrection for a pre-tribulation rapture.  Also where exactly is the pre-tribulation rapture in scripture?

[Guest shiloh357]

5 minutes ago, Brother Duke said:

Where is the scriptural proof of two different first resurrections?  The bible is pretty clear about two resurrections and not a 3rd extra resurrection for a pre-tribulation rapture.  Also where exactly is the pre-tribulation rapture in scripture?

I Thessalonians 4:13, 14 and Rev. 20: 4-6.   Those are not the same people being raised from the dead if you bother to read both passages.   Those are not the same event.  They describe two completely different events. 

[inchrist]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

.

Yeah, who said that those who get saved during the Tribulation are lower class Christians?  Specifically who teaches that and please provide a link.

You did

 

The ones who are twisting it are the ones who hate the idea of a blessed hope and who try to assign false values to it to make it appear to be something that it is not

any Christian who is not a pretrib hates the blessed hope, by such remark, you've lowered all other Christians 

[Last Daze]

27 minutes ago, Davida said:

Silly me that I don't like when someone uses my words & twists the meaning LOL.  Once again your tendency to read into things that is not there- you mischaracterized me and assigned a motive that isn't there.  

In my prior post, i  just simply said you twisted my words & gave it a meaning I did not intend which is deceptive--period.  

  Well , LOL!  at least your consistent.  

Are you 12?  And here I thought I was talking to an adult.  *sigh*

Have a great life, and fare well in the coming tribulation.

[Steve Conley]

20 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

You must have not read the mischaracterization leveled at us from another poster, unless you find yourself in agreement with this:

"Except that is exactly the kind of foolishness in which the pretrib doctrine engages. There are two sets of believers according to pretrib dogma: one set gathered before the last week begins, and another set which endure the wrath of God and are gathered sometime during the last week. Pretrib tells us there is an elite group of believers who are at this time perfected, righteous and holy and these will be taken out early so as not to endure what pretrib thinks is God's wrath. Then there is the other group, whom I have heard described on this forum as a lesser group, pushed aside because this group doesn't believe in the pretrib rapture, marginalized through what pretrib advocates seem to think is a closeted masochistic proclivity; e.g., a need to be punished to prove our worth, etc. Then of course this second, unbelieving, masochistic set must also be sadistic to the elite set, as I have heard it said on this forum the second set believe the brand new bride must be punished. Of course this is decried as outlandish as no good husband would ever do such a thing.

What we see in the behavior of the advocates of the pretrib doctrine is slanderous, prejudicial and bigoted speech. Is that any way for any believer, no matter the personal dogma, to behave? We should be bold as the lion, rock solid in our convictions, determined, unmovable, but prejudice and bigotry have no place in the heart and mind of any of us. 

At any point in time I'm variously hurt, frustrated, sorrowful, given to tears, angry, dejected, etc., over this very subject, but in all that I hope I comport my self with dignity, integrity, honesty, patience, understanding, and truth. We all need to reflect on this as it's the love we are commanded to show to all others. While we may not agree on all things, fiercely defending our beliefs, it's not an opening for the worst behavior of which we are capable. "

That is not true and that has never been taught.   Those are not "classes" of believers.   I doubt you ever heard such a thing.

Prove that. Show us some links to these "literally hundreds if not thousands of variations."   I have been a pre-tribber for ever and have not seen any such thing.  So enlighten us on that.

Yeah, who said that those who get saved during the Tribulation are lower class Christians?  Specifically who teaches that and please provide a link.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

shiloh357, what you read was, I believe, the frustration that comes from countless instances of abuse that is suffered by those who dare to point out the fallacious nature of pretribulationism. I was once a pretribber who ridiculed those who "were too stupid to see that we are not appointed unto wrath". Only a couple years ago I realized by God's mercy that I was the stupid and deceived one. It was I who had misunderstood a number of texts which left me with an unsupportable and false understanding of eschatology. However, I was not alone in this error. For the last 150 years this teaching has gained steam and grown to almost saturate the evangelical churches of the west. It is a difficult road to walk, when those you are trying to help and deliver from darkness treat you as if you had denied the deity of Christ or His substitutionary atonement.

The pan-tribulationists think, "what is the big deal". They say it will all pan out in the end. I don't see it that way. Jesus gave us many warnings concerning this coming great persecution. The result of this period of persecution will be unprecedented apostasy. Jesus said:

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12  And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

This is the falling away (apostasia) that Paul said would happen before the day of Christ (Lord) comes. The combination of unparalleled persecution (countless martyrs) and lying signs and wonders will bring about such a great departure from the faith that Jesus says: "And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? (Luk 18:7-8) The churches of the west are filled with those whose faith has never been tested. Many of them will be offended when tribulation comes. Jesus says that is what happens when the Word is received gladly by those whose hearts are like the stony ground. "But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended." (Mat 13:20-21)

Many you know, even family who profess Christ today, will be tested one day. Will they own Christ in the face of death? Jesus says that if we deny Him, He will deny us. We need to prepare the professing church to be overcomers.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

I pray you take this precious truth, and acknowledge it as the Words of our Lord.

All praise, honour and glory be unto the Lamb.