Guest shiloh357 Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 23 minutes ago, Last Daze said: These "tribulation believers", what age are they in. What age comes after the church age? There is no "age" after the church age. They are simply followers of Jesus. They are not part of the Church, but they are full believers, same as you and I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 2 hours ago, Diaste said: I know. But that wasn't the point. The point is, How? For pretrib it's an irreconcilable condition. They become believers the same way we do. They put their faith in Jesus Christ and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, same as us. There's nothing "irreconcilable" about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,628 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 1 hour ago, inchrist said: Well Ive read from top to bottom and that's all you've gotten for an answer. And then mudslinging for a few pages. Not an answer. I didn't ask 'who', I asked 'how'. This is a real issue for pretrib doctrine. It shows the problematic nature of the inherent inconsistencies in the doctrine. How does a group believers enjoy special status of the pretrib rapture, yet another group of believers must endure the tribulation? And this when pretrib doctrine cites Paul as saying, "we are not appointed to wrath". Supremely inconsistent as well as hypocritical and elitist in my eyes. It's not only the demeanor I see in the advocates of pretrib, it's the foundational premise of, 'we are not destined to wrath, but you other believers are.' This is segregation, special privilege, and exalted status. Whether they want to believe it or not. It has nothing to do with motive or belief, it the natural conclusion of the doctrine that says some believers are saved from calamity and other believers are not. Even if they can explain away Rev 7:13-14, the doctrine speaks to those left behind becoming believers, how is this possible if we as believers are not to endure God's wrath? I know how to reconcile the situation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchrist Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 3 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 3,490 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 88 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, Diaste said: Not an answer. I didn't ask 'who', I asked 'how'. This is a real issue for pretrib doctrine. It shows the problematic nature of the inherent inconsistencies in the doctrine. How does a group believers enjoy special status of the pretrib rapture, yet another group of believers must endure the tribulation? And this when pretrib doctrine cites Paul as saying, "we are not appointed to wrath". Supremely inconsistent as well as hypocritical and elitist in my eyes. It's not only the demeanor I see in the advocates of pretrib, it's the foundational premise of, 'we are not destined to wrath, but you other believers are.' This is segregation, special privilege, and exalted status. Whether they want to believe it or not. It has nothing to do with motive or belief, it the natural conclusion of the doctrine that says some believers are saved from calamity and other believers are not. Even if they can explain away Rev 7:13-14, the doctrine speaks to those left behind becoming believers, how is this possible if we as believers are not to endure God's wrath? I know how to reconcile the situation. We gonna have to wait for an answer from the pretribs....on the how.... But I can confirm your answer I'm afraid has not been answered in this thread as of yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,628 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 8 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: They become believers the same way we do. They put their faith in Jesus Christ and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, same as us. There's nothing "irreconcilable" about that. Are you being deliberately provocative? This is why I find you insincere, the inability to address the issue. You think you're clever but it's just avoidance tactics. It's not only the demeanor I see in the advocates of pretrib, it's the foundational premise of, 'we are not destined to wrath, but you other believers are.' This is segregation, special privilege, and exalted status. Whether they want to believe it or not. It has nothing to do with motive or belief, it the natural conclusion of the doctrine that says some believers are saved from calamity and other believers are not. Please reconcile this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 10 minutes ago, Diaste said: Are you being deliberately provocative? This is why I find you insincere, the inability to address the issue. You think you're clever but it's just avoidance tactics. Nothing I said was provocative. I addressed the issue you raised head-on. How did not address the issue? I am not avoiding anything. I quoted and directly addressed your remarks! Quote It's not only the demeanor I see in the advocates of pretrib, it's the foundational premise of, 'we are not destined to wrath, but you other believers are.' No one said that anyone is destined to wrath. They become Christians during the Tribulation. They are not Christians destined to wrath. They become Christians in the midst of the wrath of God. Quote This is segregation, special privilege, and exalted status. Whether they want to believe it or not. It has nothing to do with motive or belief, it the natural conclusion of the doctrine that says some believers are saved from calamity and other believers are not. Please reconcile this. There is nothing to reconcile as no one said that any believer is "destined" to wrath. It is not special privilege or segregation. It is simply that we believe that after the Tribulation begins, after the Church is taken out of the earth that everyone else will be the unsaved that rejected the Gospel. Some of them, actually a great number of them will get saved during that time period. They are not "destined" for that, it's just that this is when they got saved. God has not destined ANY believers for wrath. Just like God has not destined any of us for persecution. But those who rejected the Gospel and are alive when Tribulation starts will go through the Tribulation. It is a natural consequence of their decision, but they will be able to be saved during that time period, nonetheless. The doors of grace are not closed on them and they will be saved. Unfortunately, it will be an awful time to be a Christian, but they have the same eternity in Heaven and the Lord will be with them in that awful time period, the same as us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,628 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 40 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: There is no "age" after the church age. They are simply followers of Jesus. They are not part of the Church, but they are full believers, same as you and I. Tell me that, 'not a part of the church' is equitable and nonsegregationist. If they are full believers why must they endure wrath and the church does not? Oh, your a dispensationalist. Never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,628 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 25 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: Nothing I said was provocative. I addressed the issue you raised head-on. How did not address the issue? I am not avoiding anything. I quoted and directly addressed your remarks! No one said that anyone is destined to wrath. They become Christians during the Tribulation. They are not Christians destined to wrath. They become Christians in the midst of the wrath of God. There is nothing to reconcile as no one said that any believer is "destined" to wrath. It is not special privilege or segregation. It is simply that we believe that after the Tribulation begins, after the Church is taken out of the earth that everyone else will be the unsaved that rejected the Gospel. Some of them, actually a great number of them will get saved during that time period. They are not "destined" for that, it's just that this is when they got saved. God has not destined ANY believers for wrath. Just like God has not destined any of us for persecution. But those who rejected the Gospel and are alive when Tribulation starts will go through the Tribulation. It is a natural consequence of their decision, but they will be able to be saved during that time period, nonetheless. The doors of grace are not closed on them and they will be saved. Unfortunately, it will be an awful time to be a Christian, but they have the same eternity in Heaven and the Lord will be with them in that awful time period, the same as us. But they endure God's all the same. Semantics doesn't change the fact that the church escapes wrath based on Paul's statement, yet pretrib doctrine has 'full believers' enduring the wrath from which the pretrib believers do not suffer. It's wrong as we, believers are not appointed wrath, all of them. Something is drastically askew with the doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel 11:36 Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,957 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 295 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 Diaste is a false prophet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 1 hour ago, shiloh357 said: There is no "age" after the church age. They are simply followers of Jesus. They are not part of the Church, but they are full believers, same as you and I. Can a person be a part of the body of Christ and not be a part of the church? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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