The Olivet Discourse

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Again, you have plainly stated that the "ARROWS" are the Gospel. 

You need to explain where the rider on the WHITE HORSE gets the "Arrows" from, which you claim is the Gospel .

This is obviously your imagination running wild. There are no "ARROWS' with the rider of the white horse, only a bow.

I don't "just want to argue".

I'm calling you out on your nonsense of "adding words or ideas that are not presented in Scripture."

Like where you state that " the search in Rev 5 has been ongoing since Adam. When one search ended, another one immediately began".

Hogwash! 

So prove me wrong with GOOD exegesis. It should be easy if I am so far off.

Answer a question: if someone came up to you and asked you, "tell me how Jesus can be God and the Son of God at the same time."  Would you have to GO GET ammunition? Or would you be able to answer from what you already have WITHIN you?

Can you prove that the search has NOT been ongoing since Adam. I don't know it for a fact, but I suspect it. One thing is for sure, it happened BEFORE 95 AD.  What good is a bow without arrows? Since you think I am SO WRONG, give us YOUR theory: Explain the bow with no arrows.

You can say HOGWASH all day long but the scriptures are on MY SIDE. Read it again:

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. Here time passes on, and when time passes THINGS CHANGE. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Now, you can deny it is a search or call it a search: what we CALL it is not what is important: what is written is what is important. Answer the question: you all don't like my answer so YOU ANSWER IT! WHY did John weep much? Since you guys no it all, ANSWER: Why did John weep much? I will tell you the REAL reason, the reason you deny: Between verse 4 and 5 TIME PASSES. In verse 4 Jesus was still under the earth. in verse 5, He has PREVAILS over death and then BECAME worthy. And SOMEONE must have been looking or else Jesus VOLUNTEERED. We don't know because John did not tell us. God's point, and the point you all MISS is that Jesus was NOT found worthy and then later WAS found worthy.  Now all you that are SO SMART, tell us all WHY.  Don't just say I am wrong, PROVE me wrong with good exegesis.

[iamlamad]

You guys amaze me.  You argue and argue that I am wrong, but no one has any exegesis to prove I am wrong.  I am waiting.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Again, you have plainly stated that the "ARROWS" are the Gospel. 

You need to explain where the rider on the WHITE HORSE gets the "Arrows" from, which you claim is the Gospel .

This is obviously your imagination running wild. There are no "ARROWS' with the rider of the white horse, only a bow.

I don't "just want to argue".

I'm calling you out on your nonsense of "adding words or ideas that are not presented in Scripture."

Like where you state that " the search in Rev 5 has been ongoing since Adam. When one search ended, another one immediately began".

Hogwash! 

Question, Joe: WHERE did Paul get His gospel? Where did Peter get His gospel? Where did Stephen get His gospel? Where did Philip get His gospel? I still think you only want to argue.

[JoeCanada]

17 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 

You still are avoiding the question.

You dance around and around.....but you still can't come up with an answer.

So, I'll ask you again:

You have plainly stated that the "ARROWS" are the Gospel. 

You need to explain where the rider on the WHITE HORSE gets the "Arrows" from, which you claim is the Gospel .

This is obviously your imagination running wild. There are no "ARROWS' with the rider of the white horse, only a bow.

Scripture plainly tells us that the rider on the white horse has a "bow" only.

You have added that he has arrows.

You have stated that the arrows are the gospel.

So......................You need to explain where the rider on the WHITE HORSE gets the "Arrows" from, which you claim is the Gospel .

Of course, you need to use scripture in your explanation.

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

When you INSIST that God cannot include "history" because He said John was to see things in the future, then you are, in effect, inserting ONLY in what John wrote. But John did NOT write Only things to come. You IMAGINE he did, so you can argue that the vision of chapters 4 & 5 cannot be a vision of the past.

It is a VERY weak argument on your side. If God chose to add some history (AND HE DID) He is all powerful and able to do it.

What you need to do is go through the verses of these two chapters and prove that John cannot be talking about history (a time before 95 AD).

Sorry, but I don't have tough sledding! I know that this vision John saw was a vision of the past for him at that time. You don't know it yet, but you will.

It will be extremely difficult for you to come up with a real good exegesis on your side, because the truth lies on my side. You will be arguing against the truth.

I don't insist on anything in regards to this. Scripture does.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; " 

"3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, "

4394 prophēteía (from 4396 /prophḗtēs, "prophet," which is derived from 4253 /pró, "before" and 5346 /phēmí, "make clear, assert as a priority") – properly, what is clarified beforehand; prophecy which involves divinely-empowered forthtelling (asserting the mind of God) or foretelling(prediction).

"19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; "

The things which he saw, and the things that are, all concern the prophecy which is about to be given.  "What thou seest, write in a book,"

Chapter 4 is a vision of heaven. That's been around for a long, long time, it's past, present and future, a 'what he has seen' moment.

John is called up here and told, "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

"Hereafter" is a term that means either after, or with, or among, not past.

Chapter 5 is also a past, present, future vision. Scripture records, "...the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Jesus was worthy from the very beginning, it's an extant fact of existence, time has no bearing on this. We are not seeing an event that occurred in 33 AD but a vision of universal fact from the beginning of history to ends of eternity. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Diaste

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Was it "legal" for God to include some history in a book of Prophecy? Why not? John included events of what He saw then, in 95 AD.

If John knew nothing of "the book" then it was "revelation" to him  - no matter if it was history or future.

As far as I know John did not include 'events'. He included facts such as the vision of the throne room. This is a fact and not an event as the throne room has existed always, preexisted, forever, and will exist forever. The throne room didn't come into being when John wrote Rev 5. These things that existed were revealed to him, including the first 4 chapters. Even his recording his location was a fact, not an event.

Fact is Rev records Jesus was always the Lamb, always worthy, always slain, and all from the beginning. No 'second search' was ever undertaken. We don't have to go back to 33 AD as Jesus' worthiness is past, present and future fact. He didn't suddenly attain worth in 33 AD, Jesus is the creator of all things!

[The Light]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

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You have things backwards. I have the truth of the written word. But your theories are so far from the truth, what I write SEEMS foreign to you. I call this the preconceived glasses syndrome. You have preconceptions you IMAGINE are truth. I get it.

I just showed you what it was like reading your post. Your imagination runs wild with no scriptural support of the things you imagine.

 

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Perhaps you just don't like it that God chose to show John some history before He got to future events. You will have to take that up with HIM.

Not supported by scripture. You have just chosen to imagine this.

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Meanwhile, when I see people writing nonsense that cannot be backed up by the word of God - things like the first seal is the Antichrist - I will challenge them.

Actually the 1st seal is not the antichrist, but that's so far over you head I don't even want to go there. He is certainly an antichrist and the 7 king.

 

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I understand you can't show me the errors in my posts by good exegesis. So you just say I am wrong with no proof.  You lie and say I change the meaning of words. I probably use Strong's more than any of you. You claim I have no foundation, yet you KNOW I quote scriptures over and over. The problem is, you don't like what those scriptures say!

You do a lot of dreaming and change the meaning words to imagine a scenario that is not supported by scripture.

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Case in point: John saw a search take place for one worthy to take the book. Some imagine it was not a real search. It does not mater. John wept because it ended in failure. I have given the reason for that failure over and over. None of you seem to believe what I write, but NO ONE Has come up with another reason why a search for one worthy to open the book ended in failure.

It did not end in failure. It ended with the Lion of the tribe of Judah being found worthy to open the book.
 

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I have said over and over that this passage shows TIMING and the movement of time. There was a time when Jesus was NOT WORTHY to open the book. That is an absolute fact - and it is why "no man was found worthy." Then in the next search Jesus WAS found: why? Because He had just BECOME worthy. See? It is the movement of time.

Now, show me here where I have changed the meaning of any word. If you don't believe this, they why don't each of you show me the REAL reason why this search ended in failure. In other words, put your money where your mouth is - so to speak. Prove me wrong with good exegesis.

 

Proving you wrong is no challenge whatsoever. Getting you to quit imagining things when scripture says different is the challenge.

Rev 4

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The Gospel has already been spread to the world which is proven by fact and by Rev 1-3. Therefore the things you are imagining are Malarkey as the Word clearly proves you are in error.

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by The Light

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

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Proving you wrong is not challenge whatsoever.

 

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Rev 5: 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Lamad wrote: I have said over and over that this passage shows TIMING and the movement of time. There was a time when Jesus was NOT WORTHY to open the book. That is an absolute fact - and it is why "no man was found worthy." Then in the next search Jesus WAS found: why? Because He had just BECOME worthy. See? It is the movement of time.

Now, show me here where I have changed the meaning of any word. If you don't believe this, they why don't each of you show me the REAL reason why this search ended in failure. In other words, put your money where your mouth is - so to speak. Prove me wrong with good exegesis.

I don't know why your posts never quote. I have to copy and paste to get your words in.

Since you say my theory is made up, imagination, wrong, and proving me wrong will be no challenge, tell us all the real truth here. Answer this question: WHY was John weeping, and WHY was it much?

But before this question, you have to answer this one: WHY was Jesus not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father? There are a dozen verses showing us that is where He should have been in 95 AD.

Edited June 27, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

As far as I know John did not include 'events'. He included facts such as the vision of the throne room. This is a fact and not an event as the throne room has existed always, preexisted, forever, and will exist forever. The throne room didn't come into being when John wrote Rev 5. These things that existed were revealed to him, including the first 4 chapters. Even his recording his location was a fact, not an event.

Fact is Rev records Jesus was always the Lamb, always worthy, always slain, and all from the beginning. No 'second search' was ever undertaken. We don't have to go back to 33 AD as Jesus' worthiness is past, present and future fact. He didn't suddenly attain worth in 33 AD, Jesus is the creator of all things!

Opening a seal would be an "event." NOT seeing Jesus at the right hand of the father was a fact. But what we call things is not what is important.

Fact is Rev records Jesus was always the Lamb, always worthy  STOP!  Another FACT is that the very reason John wept much is because at that moment in time JEsus was NOT FOUND WORTHY to take the book. It seems you always ignore this "fact."

What really happened between these two verses? You don't know so you make believe.

When the angel ask WHO IS WORTHY; NO ONE ANSWERED HIS CALL! This is a FACT that you ignore. It was SO MUCH of a fact that John wept. Not a little but MUCH. Have you EVER asked God WHY John wept? And why it was "much?" I did. And His answer is, "it shows timing.

This is very basic, but you do understand, I hope, that it takes TIME to weep MUCH.

Next, it is very plain that you don't believe John when He wrote:  "no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon." He wrote it, whether or not you believe it. I know WHY he wrote it - it seems you don't. You want to argue with John and say he should not have wept because Jesus was found - showing no sense of timing whatsoever - ignoring timing.

You can SAY Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, because it is scripture. But that is God calling those things that be not as though they were. He does that. It is a FACT that Jesus was slain for real around 32 AD.  It is also a fact that God planned His death before the foundation of the world.

What you miss: from 2 BC - His birth - to His death in 32 AD Jesus was not yet worthy to take that book. This is an absolute fact. It is why Jesus did not answer the angel's call.

Since you have no desire to acknowledge the truth here, there is no need to go further.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't insist on anything in regards to this. Scripture does.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; " 

"3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, "

4394 prophēteía (from 4396 /prophḗtēs, "prophet," which is derived from 4253 /pró, "before" and 5346 /phēmí, "make clear, assert as a priority") – properly, what is clarified beforehand; prophecy which involves divinely-empowered forthtelling (asserting the mind of God) or foretelling(prediction).

"19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; "

The things which he saw, and the things that are, all concern the prophecy which is about to be given.  "What thou seest, write in a book,"

Chapter 4 is a vision of heaven. That's been around for a long, long time, it's past, present and future, a 'what he has seen' moment.

John is called up here and told, "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

"Hereafter" is a term that means either after, or with, or among, not past.

Chapter 5 is also a past, present, future vision. Scripture records, "...the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Jesus was worthy from the very beginning, it's an extant fact of existence, time has no bearing on this. We are not seeing an event that occurred in 33 AD but a vision of universal fact from the beginning of history to ends of eternity.

Answer this question, and be honest,(will you be honest and really answer the question?):  DID God show John events that would shortly come to pass?

Or answer this question: DID God show John events that were future to John in 95 AD?

Edited June 27, 2019 by iamlamad