Diaste Posted August 20, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,628 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 20, 2018 On 8/19/2018 at 10:13 AM, douggg said: condition 2, the falling away, that is what is going on during the time when the world is saying peace and safety. I have been thinking about this of late. I mean, the falling away cannot be unnoticed as Paul says it's one of the conditions. So it must clearly be something we can witness. Speculation on my part results in a scenario wherein there is an opposing force, enticing specifically the people of God to change parties, so to speak. A platform leveled at the wants and desires of the target group and supported by prior results and lofty promises. Sort of like Donald Trump spoke to the needs of the people. Prior results, lofty promises. I'm not saying the President is the beast, I don't think Christians will abdicate in favor Trumpinaity, not that there is such a thing. Again, speculation leads me to think it will be a rhetorical religious message aimed at the heart and mind of believers. With perhaps a great many leaders of the mega churches changing allegiances, and taking the flock with them. That would be something we would notice. IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted August 21, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, iamlamad said: 1. Christ COMES 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. The Father is the One who sends Jesus. Quote 2. A trumpet will SOUND 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: The trump is the voice of the archangel, the highest messenger of the Father -- Jesus. It is likely that Jesus will command "come up hither!" Quote 3. the dead in Christ will rise - starting a worldwide earthquake Maybe, but we don't have a text saying so directly. Quote 4. Those alive and in Christ are changed and rise 5. Worldwide earthquake becomes Paul's Sudden destruction. I highlighted part of your text. iamlamad, you have this one not quiet right. The sudden destruction has to with the fact that person has revealed himself to be the man of sin - some one who does evil pertaining to his claim of having achieved God-hood. Which is going to result in the martyr's who don't worship him or his image, which will take place in ~ the second half of the seven years. Quote 6. Signs in the SUN and MOON will appear, showing the start of THE DAY 7. THE DAY and HIS WRATH begin. The Day of the Lord lasts over a thousand years, and all the way into eternity. It is the beginning years (the time of great tribulation) - which the verses are focused. In the old testament, those referrals to the Day of the Lord beginning that way, when zoomed in - to the great tribulation timeframe, the signs of distress in the sun and moon are at the end of the great tribulation, and Jesus is about to descend down to earth. In terms of the 7 years, the Day of the Lord will begin sometime in the early middle part of the seven years. Right before the Abomination of Desolation is placed in the temple a short time after the person reveals himself as the man of sin. Consider this timeline: Anointed the King of Israel (illegitimate), the 7 years begin. Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation, claims to have achieved God-hood, early middle of the 7 years. The Day of the Lord begins. The resurrection/rapture takes place sometime before then. How far before or perhaps on the exact day of the transgression act is not known. God has him killed and brought back to life. Now the person is the beast. Image of the beast placed in the temple, the Abomination of Desolation, 1335 days before Jesus returns. The great tribulation begins. Near the very end of the great tribulation, 1290 days later, the sixth seal events take place. The armies gather at Armageddon. Jesus descends to earth, and destroys the beast, false prophet, the armies, and has Satan cast into the bottomless pit. Edited August 21, 2018 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted August 21, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2018 10 minutes ago, douggg said: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. The Father is the One who sends Jesus. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: The trump is the voice of the archangel, the highest messenger of the Father -- Jesus. It is likely that Jesus will command "come up hither!" Maybe, but we don't have a text saying so directly. I highlighted part of your text. iamlamad, you have this one not quiet right. The sudden destruction has to with the fact that person has revealed himself to be the man of sin - some one who does evil pertaining to his claim of having achieved God-hood. Which is going to result in the martyr's who don't worship him or his image. which will take place in ~ the second half of the seven years. The Day of the Lord lasts over a thousand years, and all the way into eternity. It is the beginning years (the time of great tribulation) - which the verses are focused. In the old testament, those referrals to the Day of the Lord beginning that way, when zoomed in - to the great tribulation timeframe, the signs of distress in the sun and moon are at the end of the great tribulation, and Jesus is about to descend down to earth. In terms of the 7 years, the Day of the Lord will begin sometime in the early middle part of the seven years. Right before the Abomination of Desolation is placed in the temple a short time after the person reveals himself as the man of sin. Consider this timeline: Anointed the King of Israel (illegitimate), the 7 years begin. Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation, claims to have achieved God-hood, early middle of the 7 years. The Day of the Lord begins. The resurrection/rapture take place sometime before then. How far before or on the exact day of the transgression act is not known. God has him killed and brought back to life. Now the person is the beast. Image of the beast placed in the temple, the Abomination of Desolation, 1335 days before Jesus returns. The great tribulation begins. Near the very end of the great tribulation, the sixth seal events take place. The armies gather at Armageddon. Jesus descends to earth, and destroys the beast, false prophet, and has Satan cast into the bottomless pit. You are certainly wrong about the sudden destruction. It is still about the rapture. All these events happen at the same time or so closer together as to appear the same time. While those who are IN Christ are changed and raised up, those that are not in Christ get the sudden destruction - AT THE SAME TIME! Paul has not left off talking about the rapture event. The phrase, "get to live together with Him" proves this. While we are getting "salvation" or being raptured, THEY get the sudden destruction. In terms of the 7 years, the Day of the Lord will begin sometime in the early middle part of the seven years. Sorry Dougg, but this is just not what is written - therefore imagination. I know the 70th week begins with the 7th seal. I also know Paul's rapture comes before the 6th seal where His Wrath begins. I also know His wrath is the DAY and the DAY is His wrath - they are the same thing: the DAY comes with His wrath. An Old Testament verse said FIERCE anger! That is how the DAY begins. And it begins right at the 6th seal where John tells us it starts. The trumpet judgments prove that, for they are the start of God destroying the earth. Perhaps you should study the word "sudden." Sorry, but it is the "trump of God," not the trump of an angel. It could be a real trumpet or it could be His voice. I guess a real trumpet. Sorry again, but an archangel is an angel, and Jesus is the SON and they are not the same! Anointed the King of Israel (illegitimate), the 7 years begin. Can you show us a scripture? I agree on your length of THE DAY. the signs of distress in the sun and moon are at the end of the great tribulation... This is MYTH! How can you say this when Joel tells us the DAY begins with signs in the sun and moon and they come BEFORE the DAY and they are seen at the 6th seal which comes before the 7th seal opens the 70th week? Douggg, you really should follow the text! Paul and John together nail down the time of the rapture as a moment before the 6th seal. there is no need to guess. The church gets lifted up at the same moment the sudden destruction hits - which is His wrath. WE get salvation [rapture] while THEY get sudden destruction. the signs of distress in the sun and moon are at the end of the great tribulation, and Jesus is about to descend down to earth. This is true, as these signs will be seen TWICE: but at the end they are different. Some time in chapter 19 in Rev. but not written by John, the world will see the last sign in teh sun and moon: TOTAL DARKNESS. Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation, claims to have achieved God-hood, early middle of the 7 years. NO! ERROR! Daniel tells us it will be this event that will divide the week into two halves - as proved by the 42 months and the 1260 days. God knows what half means! In Revelation the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven when the man of sin declares he is the God of the Jews. God has him killed and brought back to life. You are really stretching here! The beast is said to have 7 heads which are NATIONS or EMPIRES with KINGS or presidents. It is ONE (1) of the heads that is wounded to death. Did you ever notice, Iraq (Babylon) was defeated and its king (Saddam) put to death? Image of the beast placed in the temple, the Abomination of Desolation, 1335 days before Jesus returns. That is NOT the intention of the Author for the 1335 days! This is to refer to an event that will come 75 days AFTER the 70th week has ended. The image will indeed be placed, but it will occur and unknown time into the last half of the week. The Beast will be revealed at the midpoint, then some unknown time after that the False Prophet will show up and THEN the image will be created. Near the very end of the great tribulation, the sixth seal events take place. You are so far off here you have left the entire ball field! Throw all this nonsense into the trash and start over, following the text EXACTLY! Think! The 7 seals are sealing a document. The document CANNOT be opened until all 7 seals are opened - and they are opened IN ORDER. The 7th seal opened finally allows the document to be unrolled to reveal first the TRUMPET judgments. The midpoint of the week will come at the 7th trumpet. It will be there that Adam's lease will run out and Satan will suddenly have no legal recourse to our planet. Earth will be given back to Jesus Christ and Satan will be cast down - just after the midpoint. What you said is simply impossible with what is written. Therefore, it would be simply IMPOSSIBLE for the 6th seal events to happen some time after the scroll has been unrolled to reveal, for example, chapter 13: the Beast revealed. It is total MYTH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted August 21, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Diaste said: I have been thinking about this of late. I mean, the falling away cannot be unnoticed as Paul says it's one of the conditions. So it must clearly be something we can witness. Speculation on my part results in a scenario wherein there is an opposing force, enticing specifically the people of God to change parties, so to speak. A platform leveled at the wants and desires of the target group and supported by prior results and lofty promises. Sort of like Donald Trump spoke to the needs of the people. Prior results, lofty promises. I'm not saying the President is the beast, I don't think Christians will abdicate in favor Trumpinaity, not that there is such a thing. Again, speculation leads me to think it will be a rhetorical religious message aimed at the heart and mind of believers. With perhaps a great many leaders of the mega churches changing allegiances, and taking the flock with them. That would be something we would notice. IMO. How much simpler God meant it to be! The Departing of the church as in the rapture. FOR SURE those left behind will notice it BIG TIME! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted August 21, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2018 5 hours ago, douggg said: I think, when considering both 1Thessalonians5 and 2Thessalonians2:4, that the Day of the Lord is triggered by the Antichrist, perceived messiah at the time, totally unexpected, going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood. And the resurrection/rapture taking place either before then or perhaps at that exact moment. If before, we don't how far before. Could be today. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Personally, I would relate the timing of the sixth seal with Revelation 16:15, but near the very end of the 7 years. With enough time given for the kings of the earth to assemble their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus (Psalms2), and his army of saints and angels they will see in the third heaven. Psalms 2 1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Revelation 19 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. Personally, I would relate the timing of the sixth seal with Revelation 16:15, but near the very end of the 7 years. Impossible! The document cannot be opened until all six seals are broken or opened. You are lost in details. The scroll is opened in chapter 8 and what we read there is what was INSIDE the document and impossible to read until all 7 seals are opened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted August 21, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, iamlamad said: I know the 70th week begins with the 7th seal Where are you seeing in the text of Revelation the covenant confirmed with many - beginning in the 7th seal? 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 made a requirement to all future leaders of Israel to essentially confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant by making a speech to the nation of Israel that God gave them the land of Israel as theirs forever, on the feast of tabernacles. On a seven year cycle. The feast of tabernacles is when the Jews re-enact their coming out of Egypt and living in little shacks awaiting to go into the promised land. The requirement is that the confirmation" be done from the place of God's choosing. Which I have talked to Jews about, and they say that place is the temple mount. What it will be is a big speech by the Antichrist that God gave the land of Israel as theirs forever. Which will be very significant on the heels of Gog/Magog with the invaders having attempted to take the land of Israel from the Jews. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Quote Anointed the King of Israel (illegitimate), the 7 years begin. Can you show us a scripture? Not in direct words. "Anti" is a prefix meaning "instead of" and "against" The "Christ" concept is God's promised great King of Israel, to lead Israel and the world into the messianic age of peace and safety. Jesus is the Christ, the one who came in the name of the Lord. In these verses, we find the association of Christ with being the King of Israel, and Jesus being the rightful King of Israel messiah. John 5: 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. John 12:12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him. John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. Jerusalem and the Jews, that generation, rejected Jesus to be their King of Israel, chosen by God to be their King. The Anti-christ is the another they will embrace as their King of Israel - until he betrays them and the covenant of God being their God. Acting in the role as their perceived messiah, anointed the King of israel - as that is how a person becomes the King of Israel - by the false prophet, he will make the big speech from the temple mount, following Gog/Magog, to begin the 7 years 70th week. Everything in Revelation 6-19 has to be completed within the 7 years - with no going beyond - because there are only 70 weeks (of years) determined on Daniel's people and Jerusalem. The 1335 days and the 1290 days tied to the abomination of desolation has to fit within the 7 years. When the person commits the transgression of desolation act in 2Thessalonians2:4, that will end his time of the Jews thinking he is their messiah, and his time in the role of being the Antichrist. He then shortly goes into the role of being the beast, the 8th King of the Roman Empire. Edited August 21, 2018 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted August 21, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2018 5 hours ago, iamlamad said: Personally, I would relate the timing of the sixth seal with Revelation 16:15, but near the very end of the 7 years. Impossible! The document cannot be opened until all six seals are broken or opened. You are lost in details. The scroll is opened in chapter 8 and what we read there is what was INSIDE the document and impossible to read until all 7 seals are opened. I am not understanding your logic. All of the seals have been opened by Jesus already, back when John was given Revelation - so we know what is in the book. The fulfillment of what is in the book is still forthcoming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted August 21, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,628 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2018 6 hours ago, iamlamad said: How much simpler God meant it to be! The Departing of the church as in the rapture. FOR SURE those left behind will notice it BIG TIME! Well, no. At least not in the way you are presenting this. There will be no 'pretrib rapture'. Here are all the terms defined as 'departure', implied or explicit, in the NT: Strong's Greek: 359. ἀνάλυσις (analusis) -- a loosing ... Strong's Greek: 1841. ἔξοδος (exodos) -- a departure Strong's Greek: 867. ἄφιξις (aphixis) -- arrival, ie by ... Strong's Greek: 360. ἀναλύω (analuó) -- to unloose for ... Strong's Greek: 2186. ἐφίστημι (ephistémi) -- to set ... Strong's Greek: 4106. πλάνη (plané) -- a wandering Strong's Greek: 1831. ἐξέρχομαι (exerchomai) -- to go or ... Strong's Greek: 575. ἀπό (apo) -- from, away from Strong's Greek: 3992. πέμπω (pempó) -- to send Strong's Greek: 1545. ἔκβασις (ekbasis) -- an exit ... Strong's Greek: 4198. πορεύομαι (poreuomai) -- to go Strong's Greek: 5217. ὑπάγω (hupagó) -- to lead or bring ... Strong's Greek: 2064. ἔρχομαι (erchomai) -- to come, go Strong's Greek: 1537. ἐκ (ek or ex) -- from, from out of Notice how different apostasia is defined. Point of logic; If Paul really had meant 'departure from one place to another', why not use one of the above terms instead of the word for rebellion? For instance 'poreuomai' which is literally "moving something from one destination to another; " could have been used and cleared up the whole pretrib mess for all time. Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- defection ... Even worse is the full meaning; revolt. Revolt against God. Or falling away from following the Lord. You are correct, it is a 'departure'. But not from 'one place to another'. It's a departure from the faith. But you'll see. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted August 21, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2018 33 minutes ago, Diaste said: Strong's Greek: 1537. ἐκ (ek or ex) -- from, from out of Notice how different apostasia is defined. Point of logic; If Paul really had meant 'departure from one place to another', why not use one of the above terms instead of the word for rebellion? For instance 'poreuomai' which is literally "moving something from one destination to another; " could have been used and cleared up the whole pretrib mess for all time. Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- defection ... Even worse is the full meaning; revolt. Revolt against God. Or falling away from following the Lord. You are correct, it is a 'departure'. But not from 'one place to another'. It's a departure from the faith. But you'll see. If nothing were at stake, this point wouldn't even be an issue. We'd all agree that apostasia means apostasy, or a departure from the faith. The only reason its an issue is because the validity of the pretrib rapture is at stake. In 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul is essentially saying The rapture won't happen until ____________ happens first. Insert "the rapture" and then read the sentence. Then insert "the apostasy" and read it again. One of them doesn't make sense. Why is that so hard to see? Because admitting the obvious deals a serious blow to the pretrib narrative and some people just prefer what they want to be true over the truth, regardless of how much tap dancing and word games it takes to get there. However, in the end, wisdom is justified by her deeds, not her eschatology. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted August 21, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Diaste said: Well, no. At least not in the way you are presenting this. There will be no 'pretrib rapture'. Here are all the terms defined as 'departure', implied or explicit, in the NT: Strong's Greek: 359. ἀνάλυσις (analusis) -- a loosing ... Strong's Greek: 1841. ἔξοδος (exodos) -- a departure Strong's Greek: 867. ἄφιξις (aphixis) -- arrival, ie by ... Strong's Greek: 360. ἀναλύω (analuó) -- to unloose for ... Strong's Greek: 2186. ἐφίστημι (ephistémi) -- to set ... Strong's Greek: 4106. πλάνη (plané) -- a wandering Strong's Greek: 1831. ἐξέρχομαι (exerchomai) -- to go or ... Strong's Greek: 575. ἀπό (apo) -- from, away from Strong's Greek: 3992. πέμπω (pempó) -- to send Strong's Greek: 1545. ἔκβασις (ekbasis) -- an exit ... Strong's Greek: 4198. πορεύομαι (poreuomai) -- to go Strong's Greek: 5217. ὑπάγω (hupagó) -- to lead or bring ... Strong's Greek: 2064. ἔρχομαι (erchomai) -- to come, go Strong's Greek: 1537. ἐκ (ek or ex) -- from, from out of Notice how different apostasia is defined. Point of logic; If Paul really had meant 'departure from one place to another', why not use one of the above terms instead of the word for rebellion? For instance 'poreuomai' which is literally "moving something from one destination to another; " could have been used and cleared up the whole pretrib mess for all time. Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- defection ... Even worse is the full meaning; revolt. Revolt against God. Or falling away from following the Lord. You are correct, it is a 'departure'. But not from 'one place to another'. It's a departure from the faith. But you'll see. You will have to ask Paul why he chose that word. It is the feminine of the word used for divorce. In a divorce, on of the two departs - so separation or departing. I think you will see that the church has been and will continue to grow right up to the rapture. Sure, some fall way but more come. I guess your idea is that when enough fall away the church will then be so weak it cannot prevent the man of sin from being revealed. It will not work well in Paul's argument. It has to be something very significant - like half of the church leaving in one day. It also has to be something easily recognizable for Paul's argument to work. In Paul's argument, people SEE this significant event and know: "Ah! So this is what Paul was talking about!" If I was forced to guess why Paul used this word for the rapture, my guess would be that if his letter fell into Roman hands, they would not have any idea what he was talking about. He wrote it so that ONLY those who had his first letter would understand. And I suggest he added, "and now you know what withholdeth" because he knew the readers would not get his real meaning unless they thought about it a while. In other words, he TOLD US who was doing the restraining, but he did it in a hidden way, then left this clue - and now you know - so the readers would read it again and again looking for something that could be restraining or holding back the revealing. It is only a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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