The Seventieth Seven

[Last Daze]

Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.  So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.  Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.  And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.  Daniel 9:24-27

I think we're all pretty much in agreement that the first 69 weeks of this prophecy has already come to pass.  Many people see the seventieth week as still being a future event.  I used to as well but when I looked at it closely, it dawned on me that the Messiah was cut off after the 69th week.  If the things that are to be accomplished in verse 24 happen within the time frame of verse 24, as is what seems to be indicated, then the Messiah would of necessity be cut off during the 70th week since His death is what made atonement for iniquity.  That would mean that the 70th week is either partially or completely fulfilled.  The other thing that makes me wonder about a future fulfillment of the entire 70th week is the lack of any stated prophecy that lasts 2520 days.

Those who think the seventieth week is all still future, how do you account for atonement being made outside the stated timeframe of the prophecy?

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.  So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.  Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.  And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.  Daniel 9:24-27

I think we're all pretty much in agreement that the first 69 weeks of this prophecy has already come to pass.  Many people see the seventieth week as still being a future event.  I used to as well but when I looked at it closely, it dawned on me that the Messiah was cut off after the 69th week.  If the things that are to be accomplished in verse 24 happen within the time frame of verse 24, as is what seems to be indicated, then the Messiah would of necessity be cut off during the 70th week since His death is what made atonement for iniquity.  That would mean that the 70th week is either partially or completely fulfilled.  The other thing that makes me wonder about a future fulfillment of the entire 70th week is the lack of any stated prophecy that lasts 2520 days.

Those who think the seventieth week is all still future, how do you account for atonement being made outside the stated timeframe of the prophecy?

I have never fully grasped this. maybe you can help.

"issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; " So this is 69 weeks.

 

"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off " Is it really 'then'? As in after?  Would this not be 70 years short of 69 week? Or is it then and "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off " comes only after, "the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;"

[Last Daze]

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I have never fully grasped this. maybe you can help.

"issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; " So this is 69 weeks.

 

"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off " Is it really 'then'? As in after?  Would this not be 70 years short of 69 week? Or is it then and "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off " comes only after, "the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;"

I'm not really sure what you're asking.

[JoeChan82]

This may be slightly off topic, but Sir Robert Anderson wrote an excellent book called The Coming Prince. If you have a bible program on your computer, it might be included in it.  In this book, Sir Robert proves the timing between the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the coming of the Messiah (First Advent) to the day.  It is well worth the read.

[Diaste]

On 6/22/2018 at 5:33 PM, Last Daze said:

I'm not really sure what you're asking.

Did I leave that hanging? Apologies.

It always seemed odd that,"From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’" so this would be 69 sevens until the Anointed One comes, who is the ruler, and must be Jesus. So okay, there is a total of 70 sevens and after 69 sevens the Anointed One, who I assume to Jesus, who is the ruler, comes.             I understand this to be 483 years from the decree to rebuild the Temple to Jesus birth, or ministry, in Israel at the beginning of the first millennium. However, "After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing." which is what I do not understand and never have. Jesus comes after 483 years but apparently is put to death 434 after the decree, 49 years before he is said to come. How to reconcile this is the conundrum for me. What am I missing?

And of course the last week is just left out of all this unless it's considered this "He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven. In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering." is that last week. But the text does not say this is the 70th week. It's not illogical to conclude such but to be fair this could be any of the 7's as it's just "one seven".

I have long held there to be a yet to begin 70th week but that could be residue from all the pretrib doctrine I consumed in the beginning. I still hold to this for now based on an perception of Matt 24 and the Revelation, with that same perception applied. Possibly that perception is clouded by early learning but the insight I lean on now was never advanced by any pretrib author I read.

Anyway, the question with which I wrestle is how is Messiah 'cut off' 49 years before the Anointed One 'comes'?

 

 

Edited June 24, 2018 by Diaste

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:

This may be slightly off topic, but Sir Robert Anderson wrote an excellent book called The Coming Prince. If you have a bible program on your computer, it might be included in it.  In this book, Sir Robert proves the timing between the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the coming of the Messiah (First Advent) to the day.  It is well worth the read.

Interesting. I have seen similar writings. Is the conclusion 490 years from the decree?

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Did I leave that hanging? Apologies.

It always seemed odd that,"From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’" so this would be 69 sevens until the Anointed One comes, who is the ruler, and must be Jesus. So okay, there is a total of 70 sevens and after 69 sevens the Anointed One, who I assume to Jesus, who is the ruler, comes.             I understand this to be 483 years from the decree to rebuild the Temple to Jesus birth, or ministry, in Israel at the beginning of the first millennium. However, "After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing." which is what I do not understand and never have. Jesus comes after 483 years but apparently is put to death 434 after the decree, 70 years before he is said to come. How to reconcile this is the conundrum for me. What am I missing?

And of course the last week is just left out of all this unless it's considered this "He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven. In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering." is that last week. But the text does not say this is the 70th week. It's not illogical to conclude such but to be fair this could be any of the 7's as it's just "one seven".

I have long held there to be a yet to begin 70th week but that could be residue from all the pretrib doctrine I consumed in the beginning. I still hold to this for now based on an perception of Matt 24 and the Revelation, with that same perception applied. Possibly that perception is clouded by early learning but the insight I lean on now was never advanced by any pretrib author I read.

Anyway, the question with which I wrestle is how is Messiah 'cut off' 70 years before the Anointed One 'comes'?

I've never understood the reason for the distinction that's being made between the division of 7 weeks and 62 weeks.  Did the first 7 weeks somehow pertain to the "people" and the following 62 weeks pertain to the "city" as mentioned in verse 24?  I'm not sure, but I see it as two distinct time segments.  I've always taken the phrase "after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off" as a reference to that time segment that occurs after the first 7 weeks, making it a reference to something that takes place after the 69th week.  I read it as "after the 62 weeks (which is after the 7 weeks) the Messiah will be cut off", which is why I think it had to take place during the 70th week given what the prophecy is stated to accomplish in the 490 year timeframe.

[Last Daze]

9 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:

This may be slightly off topic, but Sir Robert Anderson wrote an excellent book called The Coming Prince. If you have a bible program on your computer, it might be included in it.  In this book, Sir Robert proves the timing between the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the coming of the Messiah (First Advent) to the day.  It is well worth the read.

If you want to post that under the Resources tab with a brief summary, that'd be great.

[JoeChan82]

I hope I am not adding confusion to an already complicated topic, but I believe that prophecy often contains a local more immediate application as well as a future application. In this case of the 70 years, Daniel 9 may include both.

Daniel 9:1-4 ¶ In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans; 2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. 3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: 4 ¶ And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

It seems to me that Daniel's primary concern was the Babylonian captivity then the present reality for him.

Jeremiah 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.

Maybe some of the timing in Daniel 9 was immediate while some is future.

[JoeChan82]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Is the conclusion 490 years from the decree?

Now I am going to have to read it again. I want to say yes, but I really need to get back on this. 

Ecclesiastes 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

I am part way through the book right now. In light of things you have said previously about Rome not being the iron kingdom, you might have to overlook some of his conclusions in this area. That being said, it doesn't damage the main thrust of the book.

Edited June 23, 2018 by JoeChan82
Started reading the book again.