Is there a better way to 'do Church'?

[Guest shiloh357]

4 hours ago, john1 said:

No I am not a homosexual.

But look what they said about Jesus, he condemned no one for sin.

John chapter 9

¹⁶ Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”

Homosexuality is an abomination to God.   It is something He detests.   I detest it too.  I am on God's side on the matter.   Homosexuals need to repent of their sin and get saved.  I am not condemning them.  They are already under condemnation and need to repent.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Badjao33 said:

As are other sins. Why do some believers focus so much on homosexuality?

Because it is the one sin that people seek to justify, celebrate, normalize, and even encourage others to participate.  Many advocates for homosexuality tell us that the Bible's "apparent"  condemnation of homosexuality is actually the product of a "mistranslation."   It's the only sin that somehow got mistranslated in the Bible.

It's not that we think it is greater than other sins, but it is one sin that we are being told that we need to accept as not sinful at all.  It is the world that even seeks to legally prosecute Christians for not accommodating the homosexual lifestyle.   It is now the case that gays are donning the mantle of the civil rights movement to promote their lifestyle, which is a slap in the face to the African-American community.   They faced persecution and the violation of their civil rights solely on the basis of their skin and they suffered for it.    The Homosexual community enjoys far, far more acceptances than the African-American community did, but still try to push their perversion as if somehow as if they are a persecuted minority.   They want a special, minority status simply on the basis of how they have sex and that isn't going to happen. 

It is the world's system that puts this sin up in our face on darn near daily basis and we respond to that constant push.

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The subject of this thread is "Is There a Better Way to do Church." A better way to do Church would be to stop singling out individual sins and sinners (Especially those outside the Church) and start addressing sin as a whole would it not?

Then tell that to John1 as he is the one who brought up the issue and is pushing the issue.  I am simply responding to his claims that gays can serve God as practicing homosexuals. 

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Pointing out homosexuality and ignoring the other sins makes Christians look hypocritical especially when there are so many inside the Church who are guilty of committing sexual sins.  

No one is ignoring other sins.   I don't have to mention other sins every time I speak out against homosexuality.    Again, I think it's interesting the kind of special attention you liberals give this kind of sin.   

If I started a thread on gossip or gluttony, or adultery, or lying  or any other sin out there, none of you Leftists want to know why we are singling out something like adultery or lying or gluttony.  For some reason, it is okay to dedicate a topic of conversation to those sins, but whenever and I mean, almost without exception, homosexuality is the topic, here comes someone falsely accusing us of ignoring other sins.

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Adultery, fornication, sexual crimes against children (rape, molestation, and assaults), and even homosexuality are widespread within the Church and often involves church leadership. Shouldn't we address the sins within the church before we go pointing our fingers at those outside the Church? 

Ah yes, here you go again, trying to run interference for the sinners and why we should not talk about the sinfulness of sinners.  What difference does it make if we talk about those sins in the Church or outside of the Church?

I have been on this board for 14 years and we have addressed those issues and other sinful issues inside the Church on numerous occasions.   So, we are also free to talk about these sins as they occur in the world and how the world seeks to justify them.   And we really don't need to justify how we deal with these issues, to you.

[Debp]

1 hour ago, Badjao33 said:

As are other sins. Why do some believers focus so much on homosexuality? The subject of this thread is "Is There a Better Way to do Church." A better way to do Church would be to stop singling out individual sins and sinners (Especially those outside the Church) and start addressing sin as a whole would it not? Pointing out homosexuality and ignoring the other sins makes Christians look hypocritical especially when there are so many inside the Church who are guilty of committing sexual sins.   Adultery, fornication, sexual crimes against children (rape, molestation, and assaults), and even homosexuality are widespread within the Church and often involves church leadership. Shouldn't we address the sins within the church before we go pointing our fingers at those outside the Church? 

I am not going to get involved with a long debate on this topic; however, I should add my thoughts since I have actual experiences of churches being ruined by the homosexual agenda, a gay pastor and a pro-gay pastor.

First of all, I don't go around condemning people.... homosexuals or otherwise.   I have neighbors that seem to be gay and formerly had neighbors that were openly lesbians except to their family in The Philippines.  I treated all of them respectfully like any of my neighbors.

I think the reason Bible believing Christians are speaking out about homosexuality being wrong in God's sight is because the homosexuals are actively pushing an agenda in the Church.  This agenda is that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality.  They do not believe it is a sin and they actively promote their lifestyle in certain churches.   They think they have "more light" than us that are believing what God's word says.   Also, they are becoming pastors so they can infiltrate the churches and push their agenda even more.

The adulterers, fornicators, etc, are not pushing the churches to declare those sins as right.   Whereas, homosexuals are pushing their sin as right.  So even though I don't point a finger at my neighbors, etc, I believe we Bible believing Christians must speak up about and against the invasion of homosexuality as being right, being pushed down our throats in some churches.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, Badjao33 said:

This sounds very similar to what took place with Divorce and remarriage over the years within the Church. Divorce today is now seen as totally acceptable by most Christians and even some of it's top leaders are guilty of this sin (Charles Stanley would be a good example).

Divorce isn't necessarily a sin in every case.   There is divorce that God approves of and divorce that God hates.   So it is not so cut and dry.   

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This is why so many see Christians as being hypocritical when they single out homosexuality and at the same time accept, and in many cases defend, divorce and remarriage to divorcees.  

It is not a sin for divorcees to remarry so long as biblical regulations are followed. 

That can in no way be compared to homosexuality which God calls an abomination.   No one is excusing certain sins that God hates and condemning others.  That is always a common liberal accusation that is only lobbed when we are addressing the abomination of homosexuality.   If I were talking about gluttony, you likely would not have brought up the issue of divorce.

 

[Debp]

11 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

This sounds very similar to what took place with Divorce and remarriage over the years within the Church. Divorce today is now seen as totally acceptable by most Christians and even some of it's top leaders are guilty of this sin (Charles Stanley would be a good example). This is why so many see Christians as being hypocritical when they single out homosexuality and at the same time accept, and in many cases defend, divorce and remarriage to divorcees.  

You always seem to have something negative to say against Christians....I don't understand that.

 

[Heleadethme]

On 7/7/2018 at 5:42 PM, shiloh357 said:

Who cares if someone wears the robes or not?

There is to be no schism in the Body.

[Heleadethme]

25 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

This sounds very similar to what took place with Divorce and remarriage over the years within the Church. Divorce today is now seen as totally acceptable by most Christians and even some of it's top leaders are guilty of this sin (Charles Stanley would be a good example). This is why so many see Christians as being hypocritical when they single out homosexuality and at the same time accept, and in many cases defend, divorce and remarriage to divorcees.  

There is a lot of hypocrisy in the church without question.  But it doesn't change a thing about what the bible says regarding homosexuality and other sins.  God is no respecter of persons and anyone who wants to be a follower of Jesus needs to cease their sin because without holiness no-one will see the Lord,    and that's true whether homosexual or heterosexual or thief or liar or drunkenness, etc.  Healing, deliverance and understanding may not come right away, but for sure sins of any kind needs to be stopped, or the person is in serious danger of losing their salvation.  Sin separates us from God.  Jesus said if you would be my disciple, DENY YOURSELF, take up your cross, and follow me.  Belief without also working out our salvation with fear and trembling is not going to take anyone very far, because even the devil believes and trembles.  If a person has no desire to be free of their bondages and be holy/clean in the sight of God and doesn't begin to fight the good fight of faith against the lusts of their flesh, then I would doubt they had received Christ or perhaps that they were ones who had no root in them.  Some come to faith but draw back to perdition as soon as they realize there is a cost involved in following the Lord.

[Heleadethme]

10 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

If you were serving in the communities of unbelievers, you would understand. When we only surround ourselves with other believers who hold the same opinions and points of views, it's easy not to see how those outside of our circle view us. One of the reasons that a lot of people in the unbelieving world aren't willing to believe what we preach is because we are seen by many as being hypocrites, liars, self righteous, and bigots.  As a believer it hurts to be viewed in such ways since we know Jesus does not approve of any of these traits from those who follow Him.  While it may seem I always have something negative to say about us, all I am trying to do is raise awareness to some of the many problems we have within the Body of Christ. Before we can effectively reach the lost, we have to first humble ourselves and admit that we too have our faults and recognize that many of the sins of the world exist within our own community. 

The banner of His word needs to be raised up....that IS the job of the church to preach the truth of the word in order to convict of sins and call people to repentance.  But I agree that cold uncaring attitudes and self-righteousness are not the ways of the Spirit, and the Lord is very angry at how so many people have been prevented from entering the kingdom due to Phariseeical attitudes and ways of the church that are of the flesh.  Our conversation is to be full of grace and only seasoned with salt.  But on the other hand there are many churches that have no salt at all....and Jesus said if the salt loses its saltiness it cannot be made salty again...it's fit only to be taken out and trampled by men.  He is not going to fix a church that has lost its saltiness, He is only going to judge it, and that's why He has led many to leave such places to seek Him outside the camp in the last days.  It's time for judgment to begin at His house.

[Guest shiloh357]

40 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

If you were serving in the communities of unbelievers, you would understand. When we only surround ourselves with other believers who hold the same opinions and points of views, it's easy not to see how those outside of our circle view us.

Yeah, 'cause none of us are ever around unbelievers, none of us have unbelieving family members, we are all just living in our own little Bible-bubble echo chambers 

You make a lot of judgements about us that you are woefully unqualified to make. 

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One of the reasons that a lot of people in the unbelieving world aren't willing to believe what we preach is because we are seen by many as being hypocrites, liars, self righteous, and bigots.  

There are a lot of Christians like that in the Church. sadly.  The Church is made up  of people who are at different stages of maturity in their walk with the Lord.  They still carry baggage from their previous life and are working through those issues and are still unlearning old ways of life and in that transition, they will win some battles and lose some battles against the flesh.   Many act poorly out of personal tragedy and pain and suffer as much in those circumstances as anyone else.  Some are decidedly angry with God and are still working through that, as well.

But be that as it may, that does not excuse or justify anyone's unbelief.   Yes, Christians can be hypocrites, but Jesus was NOT a hypocrite and He is the standard by which we are all measured and HE is the one that sinners will stand before in judgment and HE is the one that they will given account to.  So, no matter what we do and the sins we commit, they have to stand before Jesus and our sins and shortcomings will not be an adequate excuse for their unbelief and rejection of Jesus. 

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As a believer it hurts to be viewed in such ways since we know Jesus does not approve of any of these traits from those who follow Him.  While it may seem I always have something negative to say about us, all I am trying to do is raise awareness to some of the many problems we have within the Body of Christ. Before we can effectively reach the lost, we have to first humble ourselves and admit that we too have our faults and recognize that many of the sins of the world exist within our own community. 

And that can start with not being  anti-Semitic aligning one's self with anti-Semites, replacement theologians, and holocaust deniers while claiming to be a "Christian."   When you visit your perfectionism on that, then you might have something credible to offer.

[Guest shiloh357]

8 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

What category do you feel Charles Stanley's divorce fell into?  Do you believe God approved his divorce from his wife?

He didn't divorce his wife.  She divorced him and the particulars of that divorce have never been revealed.  And they shouldn't be.  It's really none of our business.

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Based on the people I know who have divorced and remarried, most have not followed the Biblical regulations. I would guess that the percentage of justifiable divorces and remarriages are pretty low. 

That is irrelevant. The point is that there are biblical regulations and allowances for divorce given in Scripture.  Whether someone chooses to follow them or not is a different matter. 

 

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There's a long list of abominations that seem to get ignored in the Church. 

Not really.  Again, if we were talking about anything other than homosexuality, you would not bring that up.