Hard one to discuss

[Neighbor]

Hi Debp,

Broccoli!???? No broccoli yuck. LOL

From my vantage point I see the trouble with healthy eating is that the "rules"change; often based upon the profit needs of it's advocates. And then it soon appears as a brand in the quick foods section of the grocery store. From Adkins to Healthy Choice.

As for me, I have lived one simple rule regarding consumption of food; I'll eat it if it doesn't eat me first.

One rather wonderful aunt on the other hand ate only bread she made from spelt, spent most of the day making food; and had garlic hanging in her kitchen  eating bowls of it each day, p-u, to control her high blood pressure rather than take a simple pill.  She had a stroke and suffered, I think rather needlessly, for several years paralyzed until her death. A simple pill  of modern western medicine could have made a major difference in the end of her natural life. She was an extremist of alternative medical treatment and healthcare. Now she did live a long time, so who knows-

Alternative treatment of a simple lesion on an eyelid treated with salve instead of western medicine's surgical knife has led to another serious cancer in a relative, followed with removal of an eyelid, grafting, removal of some sinus cavity, and the cancer is still there slowly growing. Could have been simple,- cut it out; but no, western medicine is a scam of big medicine so  I will buy salve instead- yeah sure good plan. As Dr. Phil asks; Hows that working for ya? 

 I do wonder why it isn't someone at America, say from Loma Linda or from the Mayo Clinic that comes up with a diet cure to this or that or finds a magic seed in the mountains of San Bernadino? It's always India, China,  and now Japan.

We all know that in reality none of it works for it is Hittleman's Hatha yoga that unravels the hidden mysteries. Sorry, just a little  grim humor about this serious subject that is hard to discuss for the gut felt pain of loss of loved ones due to cancer.

Through it all though is the tremendous faith  and courage of saints in Christ Jesus, their testimony regardless of their medical decisions do encourage me to my own better perseverance in bad times as well as good.

Take care out there in the city  of the angels the place I left when I realized it was also full of fallen angels.

[Willa]

My friend who had stage 4 cancer had been told by her doctor that her organs were shutting down and she had only a few days to live at best, had a group of friends gather around her hospital bed and pray long into the night till she was aware of that gripping fear was leaving her and then warmth like warm oil being poured over her body, then peace.  Her tumor had broken several ribs it was so large, but it shrank over the following months till no trace of cancer cells were found in her.  It was one of the few true miracles I have personally seen.

[Neighbor]

4 hours ago, Willa said:

My friend who had stage 4 cancer had been told by her doctor that her organs were shutting down and she had only a few days to live at best, had a group of friends gather around her hospital bed and pray long into the night till she was aware of that gripping fear was leaving her and then warmth like warm oil being poured over her body, then peace.  Her tumor had broken several ribs it was so large, but it shrank over the following months till no trace of cancer cells were found in her.  It was one of the few true miracles I have personally seen.

Yep, but that does not mean serious illness that leads to death comes from lack of faith.  Not at all. Many suffer long hard lives living and dying in harsh circumstance, doing so while living the command rejoice, rejoice in all things, the very command mentioned throughout the Bible and within the NT many times over.

Edited July 22, 2018 by Neighbor
deleted a specific number as it varies some with the versions

[Willa]

Heb 11:36  Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment.

Heb 11:37  They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented—

Heb 11:38  of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

Heb 11:39  And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,

Heb 11:40  God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Heb 12:1  Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

Heb 12:2  looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[Sower]

On 7/21/2018 at 7:01 AM, Neighbor said:

I suggest that it is not the good time to have debate over the values of differing medical syles treatments and philosophies. It is time to go for broke, be as aggressive as possible, cut it out, burn it out, poison it, do whatever it takes, including  a change of diet.

Do it all for this is a real hard fight. Show the enemy disease no mercy,  no rules of engagement, just an all out fight. Use the mind too! Force a positive attitude to prevail no matter what the circumstance  of the moment. Basically never give up the ship while there is still ammunition to fight with.

I respectively disagree, Neighbor. It is a very important time to stop and consider any and all options, discuss with others who have experience with similar/same disease, and pray. And do your homework. My father in law was diagnosed with Pancreatic cancer, a very fast killer, no cure, only short time gained with heroic (very painful) efforts. My wife pleaded with him, at eighty five and a believer, to go peacefully with just pain treatment. The doctors convinced him to go all out with both barrels, telling him with surgery he would live three to five years, and without surgery, only six months.  Yes, he fought valiantly, with so much discomfort and pain, needlessly, to what end. He could have died much more  painlessly, and peaceably. He lived seven months..... One of my best friends had surgery on his heart, quad bypass. He was the image of health. Went through surgery flying colors, went home in two days, excellent health. A few days later, went back to hospital as he couldn't breath hardly. Turns out, they gave him medicine for heart fib that ate up his lungs, and died a week later. Could have been avoided.
Pancreatic cancer has the highest mortality rate of all major cancers. 74% of all patients die within the first year of diagnosis.

I go to the VA hospital, and was told my prostrate PSA level was way too high, up to 10.2 and was convinced to take biopsy, which showed 100% free. (Praise God) They wanted surgery.  Started to research more, and found the PSA was no longer an approved marker by the AMA, and many prostrate surgeries totally unnecessary. I said no surgery, and no more PSA tests. This was twelve years ago.  The VA hospital I go to has a connecting corridor to a university hospital where they train new doctors. They need patients to learn surgery, thus why not Veterans. Give more blood for the kipper. The primary method there for veterans is a grocery sack of drugs, unlimited refills.
My wife and children and many friends are into many non pharmaceutical produced remedies for many ailments, similar to holistic medicine. Much is done to prevent problems, before the arise, like someone said, we all have cancer cells waiting for opportunity to overcome a weak/malnourished immune system. You may want to listen when someone recommends certain foods that help your immune system. (not so)Common sense diet/prevention vs drugs, cut and burn.
Have read research indicating that when the big hysterectomy and mastectomy scare years ago commenced, millions of surgeries ensued over the years. Big percentage unnecessary.  Many unpublished lawsuits abound.
  I. THE EPIDEMIC OF UNNECESSARY HYSTERECTOMY
Surgery of all types is increasing in the United States2& and the burden of this surgery is borne primarily by women.28 Surpassing tonsillectomy, hysterectomy27 is now the most commonly performed major operation in the country.28 If the present rates continue, sixty-two percent of all the women in the United States will have a hysterectomy by the time they are seventy29and it is estimated that anywhere from fifteen to forty percent of these operations will be unnecessary.

And now, the big one, the reason to pause and do some research. There are many gifted, honest, and competent doctors and nurses, and hospitals, that is a given. I have relatives and good friends in the health care industry. My cousin in healthcare informed me the most important thing to consider when deciding options is your doctor. Some are good, some not. Some are excellent, dedicated men and women of integrity. Do your homework. But then, there is the human factor, fallen man, that comes into play. This below, is only one, a very conservative estimate of what's happening out there in health care. And it is based only upon what is reported, not what has been covered up.
 

• A recent Johns Hopkins study claims more than 250,000 people in the U.S. die every year from medical errors. Other reports claim the numbers to be as high as 440,000.  Think on that !
• Medical errors are the third-leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer.
• Advocates are fighting back, pushing for greater legislation for patient safety.
  
  Excerpt;
  "Health care in the United States has become an enormous industry where huge profits are made from the production of drugs, medical supplies, machines, and equipment.2 The cost of medical treatment is increasing at such an alarming rate that soon only the wealthy will be able to afford adequate medical care.3 Further, the profit motives of physicians, insurance companies, and private industry often interfere with effective, patient oriented health care.4This country's health care system is controlled by organized medicine and its legislative lobby, the American Medical Association. 15 This association has limited and continues to limit the practice of medicine to a select number of sanctioned practitioners. 6 As a result of this monopoly, there are now fewer physicians per person than there were fifty years ago.7 This contrived shortage of doctors has also kept the salaries of male physicians8 the highest of any profession in the country.9 Consumers do not have any input in health care policy making or in the monitoring of physician performance. The medical profession is relatively free from outside regulation and the few regulatory bodies that do exist are usually physician dominated and essentially ineffective.10 The education of newcomers and the quality of medical care is exclusively controlled by the medical community.ll Consequently, physicians are usually the only ones in a position to monitor the performance of their colleagues.

However, evidence indicates that the medical profession does not adequately regulate itself.12 This lack of effective medical regulation gives physicians unbridled reign in the health care area.
The increase in medical malpractice claims indicates that there are some serious abuses and mistakes being made by the
medical community;13 the effects of which are primarily felt by women.14 Physicians have continually subjected women to unnecessary surgery,tll highly toxic drugs,t8 dangerous devices,17and needless x-rays.18 Sexual prejudices harbored by most male physicians,19 coupled with women's ignorance concerning their own bodies,20 make women particularly vulnerable to medical abuse. Women, as well as men, are socialized to believe that the ethics and expertise of the medical community ensure competent behavior on the part of physicians.21 This belief, however, is misguided; the evidence indicates that women's health care is grossly inadequate22 and in dire need of effective external control
and regulation. The power necessary for such regulation may be found in the judiciary. Several courses are available to the legal practitioner when faced with claims of medical misconduct.23 But because profit motivation dominates the health field, the reality of malpractice suits and their accompanying awards may act as an effective means to monitor physician behavior.

This is not a condemnation of American healthcare. I believe it one of the best available in the world.  It is a simple observation of my own, that one should not take it upon themselves to just put their lives in total control of someone whose livelihood depends on the amount of surgeries/appointments they make. You have friends, talk, ask, inquire. Do your home work. You probably would ask a friend or two to recommend a good plumber if need, and would research them.  God is the one to give 100% control to. He is the great physician. Ask Him. He still sit on the throne............And Amen?
Unless the Lord returns in our lifetime, we're all going to die. I may not want to. Yet.  But I'm ready....

 

[Neighbor]

2 hours ago, Gary Lee said:

I respectively disagree, Neighbor. It is a very important time to stop and consider any and all options, discuss with others who have experience with similar/same disease, and pray. And do your homework. My father in law was diagnosed with Pancreatic cancer, a very fast killer, no cure, only short time gained with heroic (very painful) efforts. My wife pleaded with him, at eighty five and a believer, to go peacefully with just pain treatment. The doctors convinced him to go all out with both barrels, telling him with surgery he would live three to five years, and without surgery, only six months.  Yes, he fought valiantly, with so much discomfort and pain, needlessly, to what end. He could have died much more  painlessly, and peaceably. He lived seven months..... One of my best friends had surgery on his heart, quad bypass. He was the image of health. Went through surgery flying colors, went home in two days, excellent health. A few days later, went back to hospital as he couldn't breath hardly. Turns out, they gave him medicine for heart fib that ate up his lungs, and died a week later. Could have been avoided.
Pancreatic cancer has the highest mortality rate of all major cancers. 74% of all patients die within the first year of diagnosis.

I go to the VA hospital, and was told my prostrate PSA level was way too high, up to 10.2 and was convinced to take biopsy, which showed 100% free. (Praise God) They wanted surgery.  Started to research more, and found the PSA was no longer an approved marker by the AMA, and many prostrate surgeries totally unnecessary. I said no surgery, and no more PSA tests. This was twelve years ago.  The VA hospital I go to has a connecting corridor to a university hospital where they train new doctors. They need patients to learn surgery, thus why not Veterans. Give more blood for the kipper. The primary method there for veterans is a grocery sack of drugs, unlimited refills.
My wife and children and many friends are into many non pharmaceutical produced remedies for many ailments, similar to holistic medicine. Much is done to prevent problems, before the arise, like someone said, we all have cancer cells waiting for opportunity to overcome a weak/malnourished immune system. You may want to listen when someone recommends certain foods that help your immune system. (not so)Common sense diet/prevention vs drugs, cut and burn.
Have read research indicating that when the big hysterectomy and mastectomy scare years ago commenced, millions of surgeries ensued over the years. Big percentage unnecessary.  Many unpublished lawsuits abound.
  I. THE EPIDEMIC OF UNNECESSARY HYSTERECTOMY
Surgery of all types is increasing in the United States2& and the burden of this surgery is borne primarily by women.28 Surpassing tonsillectomy, hysterectomy27 is now the most commonly performed major operation in the country.28 If the present rates continue, sixty-two percent of all the women in the United States will have a hysterectomy by the time they are seventy29and it is estimated that anywhere from fifteen to forty percent of these operations will be unnecessary.

And now, the big one, the reason to pause and do some research. There are many gifted, honest, and competent doctors and nurses, and hospitals, that is a given. I have relatives and good friends in the health care industry. My cousin in healthcare informed me the most important thing to consider when deciding options is your doctor. Some are good, some not. Some are excellent, dedicated men and women of integrity. Do your homework. But then, there is the human factor, fallen man, that comes into play. This below, is only one, a very conservative estimate of what's happening out there in health care. And it is based only upon what is reported, not what has been covered up.
 

• A recent Johns Hopkins study claims more than 250,000 people in the U.S. die every year from medical errors. Other reports claim the numbers to be as high as 440,000.  Think on that !
• Medical errors are the third-leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer.
• Advocates are fighting back, pushing for greater legislation for patient safety.
  
  Excerpt;
  "Health care in the United States has become an enormous industry where huge profits are made from the production of drugs, medical supplies, machines, and equipment.2 The cost of medical treatment is increasing at such an alarming rate that soon only the wealthy will be able to afford adequate medical care.3 Further, the profit motives of physicians, insurance companies, and private industry often interfere with effective, patient oriented health care.4This country's health care system is controlled by organized medicine and its legislative lobby, the American Medical Association. 15 This association has limited and continues to limit the practice of medicine to a select number of sanctioned practitioners. 6 As a result of this monopoly, there are now fewer physicians per person than there were fifty years ago.7 This contrived shortage of doctors has also kept the salaries of male physicians8 the highest of any profession in the country.9 Consumers do not have any input in health care policy making or in the monitoring of physician performance. The medical profession is relatively free from outside regulation and the few regulatory bodies that do exist are usually physician dominated and essentially ineffective.10 The education of newcomers and the quality of medical care is exclusively controlled by the medical community.ll Consequently, physicians are usually the only ones in a position to monitor the performance of their colleagues.

However, evidence indicates that the medical profession does not adequately regulate itself.12 This lack of effective medical regulation gives physicians unbridled reign in the health care area.
The increase in medical malpractice claims indicates that there are some serious abuses and mistakes being made by the
medical community;13 the effects of which are primarily felt by women.14 Physicians have continually subjected women to unnecessary surgery,tll highly toxic drugs,t8 dangerous devices,17and needless x-rays.18 Sexual prejudices harbored by most male physicians,19 coupled with women's ignorance concerning their own bodies,20 make women particularly vulnerable to medical abuse. Women, as well as men, are socialized to believe that the ethics and expertise of the medical community ensure competent behavior on the part of physicians.21 This belief, however, is misguided; the evidence indicates that women's health care is grossly inadequate22 and in dire need of effective external control
and regulation. The power necessary for such regulation may be found in the judiciary. Several courses are available to the legal practitioner when faced with claims of medical misconduct.23 But because profit motivation dominates the health field, the reality of malpractice suits and their accompanying awards may act as an effective means to monitor physician behavior.

This is not a condemnation of American healthcare. I believe it one of the best available in the world.  It is a simple observation of my own, that one should not take it upon themselves to just put their lives in total control of someone whose livelihood depends on the amount of surgeries/appointments they make. You have friends, talk, ask, inquire. Do your home work. You probably would ask a friend or two to recommend a good plumber if need, and would research them.  God is the one to give 100% control to. He is the great physician. Ask Him. He still sit on the throne............And Amen?
Unless the Lord returns in our lifetime, we're all going to die. I may not want to. Yet.  But I'm ready....

 

Thanks for emphasizing consultations.

Of course consider and discuss, and especially pray always. But do not dismiss aggressive medical treatment as being out of hand as there is good testimony in the hand God delivers to do surgery radiology and chemotherapy, too.

One thing not yet mentioned is the absolute need for  an advocate or advocates in these fights. It is very hard to absorb all the input especially when sick and getting sicker. Advocates not only help they can be vital to gaining and retaining necessary information. They definitely are needed at hospital and  rehab facilities. Plus, it is really helpful to have a very good caring and informed general  or family physician as a quarterback to co ordinate use of the specialists and to make sure there is not conflicting treatment going on.

My point about being aggressive presupposes one is going to fight. If not then of course it doesn't much matter except  for receiving water keeping hydrated and leaning about hospice. There is care with hospice and Empath that handles pain and they do it so very well.One should not wait on talking with hospice, get way ahead of the curve on that one!!! Starvation is not painful, dehydration is. Even at hospice just as at hospitals our own group has always set up shifts keeping a family member close finds and hired staff on hand with the patient 24/7.

[Debp]

I wish doctors in the USA would be using some newer cancer treatments.    I mentioned Japan's doctors because they are using about 3 new types of treatment to defeat cancer.   One treatment causes the tumors to shrink dramatically and extend life.   They have a treatment that only targets the cancer cells so it doesn't cause the problems like chemo and radiation.   Another treatment they have somehow uses heat.

It's smart of the Japanese doctors/researchers to be using these new treatments that work.   If anyone is interested, I saw these treatments on a Japanese program called Medical Frontiers.   It's on the NHK app and the program is in English.

 

I have a young cousin who developed cancer (tongue) years ago.   It's a miracle she is still alive, doctors gave her only a short time to live a few times.

Rachel got a sore on her tongue...had laser surgery.   They did not get all of the cancer!!   She had so many subsequent surgeries (I think she said about 35), chemo, double radiation.   They kept cutting out more of her tongue.   Doctors don't usually do double radiation but her doctor did as she was a younger mother.  Because of the double radiation, her jaw bones eventually broke!!    Then she was going to have reconstructive surgery on her jaw...that didn't work.   She also got bad infections in her jaw bones which wouldn't clear up.   So she had to do alot of hyperbaric chamber treatments which they told her could cause seizures and other really awful, scary stuff.

She lives in Arizona. She still has deformities, has a hard time talking and sometimes people laughed at her.  She hasn't been able to eat for probably at least ten years now.   She can eat pudding, etc, lives on Ensure.   Of course, she is really thin.

She had a strong will to live as she had a young child and amazingly she is still with us!   She is a Christian, too, so trusted God through it all.

Edited July 23, 2018 by Debp

[Neighbor]

Since prostate exam and biopsy  has been mentioned: May I also add the PAP smear  for women. Please don't dismiss that  nor the breast exam. Just get it!

Men's PSA levels can rise and lower, a high level reading is reason for further exam and even biopsy. No the biopsy is not fun at all, and it is intrusive for sure, but do it if there is  high PSA, perhaps have more than one PSA reading first.

Women do not, do not, do not, ignore and put off a PAP smear reading. It can be the difference in life and death and how each goes. Yes it is invasive. Surgery is far more invasive later if there is a cancer that was not easily detected with a PAP smear. Go make the appointment, get it done, be done with it. Same with breast exams, do it.

 I know but but but, I know same with me, I can make all the excuses too. BUT they make no sense at all later when battling an aggressive cancer that could have been detected very early on and far more easily handled. Yes there is cost, and yes it is hard to figure how to pay for it all, but do it as best you can, just get it done.

 This all presupposes each of us are in prayer for  God's guidance through the Holy Spirit's lead in our lives. I just grant that all of us that are born again saints in the Lord Jesus are aware and do that.

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Neighbor

[Neighbor]

54 minutes ago, Debp said:

I wish doctors in the USA would be using some newer cancer treatments.    I mentioned Japan's doctors because they are using about 3 new types of treatment to defeat cancer.   One treatment causes the tumors to shrink dramatically and extend life.   They have a treatment that only targets the cancer cells so it doesn't cause the problems like chemo and radiation.   Another treatment they have somehow uses heat.

It's smart of the Japanese doctors/researchers to be using these new treatments that work.   If anyone is interested, I saw these treatments on a Japanese program called Medical Frontiers.   It's on the NHK app and the program is in English.

 

I have a young cousin who developed cancer (tongue) years ago.   It's a miracle she is still alive, doctors gave her only a short time to live a few times.

Rachel got a sore on her tongue...had laser surgery.   They did not get all of the cancer!!   She had so many subsequent surgeries (I think she said about 35), chemo, double radiation.   They kept cutting out more of her tongue.   Doctors don't usually do double radiation but her doctor did as she was a younger mother.  Because of the double radiation, her jaw bones eventually broke!!    Then she was going to have reconstructive surgery on her jaw...that didn't work.   She also got bad infections in her jaw bones which wouldn't clear up.   So she had to do alot of hyperbaric chamber treatments which they told her could cause seizures and other really awful, scary stuff.

She lives in Arizona. She still has deformities, has a hard time talking and sometimes people laughed at her.  She hasn't been able to eat for probably at least ten years now.   She can eat pudding, etc, lives on Ensure.   Of course, she is really thin.

She had a strong will to live as she had a young child and amazingly she is still with us!   She is a Christian, too, so trusted God through it all.

Hi Debp. Sorry for the plight of your cousin Rachel. Oddly enough I have some experience  and awareness of "new techniques" and just how long they take to get approved in the USA.

My father and his co inventor, a very brilliant inventor/doctor from the VA system,  many years ago set about to be able to make replacement jaws out of titanium using a titanium mesh. They had to invent it from scratch there was no such thing. The process of full approval of their invention  took nineteen years, many  ( 40) operations on monkeys, many experimental operations on humans, plus the training of all the younger doctors at the six major trauma centers and medical universities in the USA, and a vast sum of personally earned money they each invested into the cause.

The idea was to shape a cage of mesh into jaw shape, insert bone marrow into it, and have the marrow grow and fill the cage making a new jaw of bone inside the cage. It worked. My father considered it to be his 30 year hobby, his give back. He put lots and lots of money and huge amounts of time into it as did his co inventor and a couple of other individuals from the old NASA aerospace era that all worked together. They are gone now, the company bought out and changed to fit today's corporate idea of making money and providing product.

The whole thing came out of the early work in aerospace as my father formulated along with  a close coworker in the industry the successful manner in which chem milling  was and is done, along with a few really cool individuals that just devoted  endless hours to such endeavors as figuring out how to get into space , go to the moon and back again. They are all gone now. Some of the advances lost totally and some  advanced by others. Today eye sockets  and all sorts of bridging made of titanium mesh are the offshoot of trying to rebuild Vietnam War casualties that  had their faces destroyed in combat. All of that  has it's birth in going to the moon, which had it's conception  first desired by  a then young  president Kennedy.

 New techniques don't just happen, they start with God raising up children to get educated and curious. and to have the energy plus the will to suffer and to spend their own resources risking it all,  to get government approval to go on with their end resulting products. Then they do have to train up a whole generation of surgeons and doctors that will try something new.

The older doctors  the established ones of the better trauma hospitals tend not to  risk what they have gained, not on something new, as they have years and years  invested themselves and they don't want to lose it nor to mistreat anyone chancing something not as proven as what they have known. It is hard, any mistake and a few lawsuits- wow life is changed dramatically after all the time and effort spent to get  somewhere to help people.

So yes  medical people I suspect are in general cautiously slow to risk adapting using that which may set them back. There is tension between the new hyped and maybe good, maybe not, treatment or technique versus the older known ones. They can't just say to a patient's family, oops that one didn't work out so well, sorry about that. They will be sued within an inch of their life.

 It is mysterious how God works us, how individuals get driven to  do what has not been done before, and how it all gets linked in a chain of events  and processes. It is also quite grand.

Edited July 23, 2018 by Neighbor

[turtletwo]

When cancer rears its ugly head we want to hang on for dear life (to life.) We naturally ask God to heal the loved one who has been struck. God hears our frightened cries. Sometimes He'll grants our hearts desire and a miracle follows. But oftentimes He chooses not to. Nobody knows why some people emerge healed and others don't. 

Someone once told me that God ALWAYS heals. I didn't understand. Then they explained...If not in this life then in the next one (where all sickness and pain cease.) We call that death. Or "they lost their battle with cancer." But in reality that is the ULTIMATE healing. I think this is beautifully expressed in the video Home free. I hope it sheds a new light on this serious topic and brings a bit of comfort.