Are our pastors leading us astray?

[Blood Bought 1953]

2 hours ago, angels4u said:

I agree that the enemy is doing a great job to deceive people and many preachers are preaching a very watered down gospel, something people like to hear so they don't have to deal with guilt and shame, many churches are more focused of how the music sounds or the preacher is wondering if he looks good to be on a video and is focussed more on himself then God. This ought not to be ,a preacher should be humble  also not trying to work up  people's feelings  but to bring his message with much reverence  for God. 

But then on the other hand if we're born again,really born again,we do have to be careful not to go back to the law and try to be good in all we do as those are works ,when Jesus died for us on the cross,He set us free from bondage,Paul warned for those things too.

Its up to us Christians to read your Bible and worship God when you go to church,don't expect the preacher to work out your salvation,our gatherings together should be to lift the name of Jesus high,to remember His death and resurrection and to preach the gospel and call sin  in and out season.

 

The Cost of Speaking the Truth

There is a cost to speaking the truth. This realization came nearly 10-years ago when I was asked to speak at the annual conference for the American Baptist...unaware that they were about to divide over ordaining those who embrace the homosexual lifestyle.

Within minutes of beginning my message, people began to leave the large auditorium. Although it was clear that I had struck a nerve, the clearest message came when a woman approached the platform and attempted to disrupt the service. I told her that I would be happy to talk with her after the service.

Afterwards, a large line of people waited to talk to me. I will never forget the very angry 12-year old girl. My heart sank when she said, “I hate everything you had to say. It was mean and hateful!” Though shocked by her comment, I was moved with compassion for such a young life filled with passion for the wrong things. Others asked if I ever received death threats.

As I boarded the plane, I was perplexed and confused. I prayed, “Lord, what’s wrong. I’m simply speaking Your word and genuinely loving these people.” The words of Titus Brandsma (martyred at Dachau under Hitler) began to ring true, “Those who want to win the world for Christ must have the courage to come into conflict with it.”

I buckled my seat, anxious to head for the familiar comfort of home...but I knew that my life had made a turn. This gospel of love had, ironically, become a message of hate to those who oppose it: “A time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God” (John 16:2).

Speaking the truth was going to cost me (and it will cost you). I knew that my kids would someday be old enough to ask why the hate mail, mean remarks, indignant looks...while most feedback is very encouraging, those who are upset will often stop at nothing to get their point across.

Do I enjoy this? That goes without answer. Although many applaud boldness, if the truth be told, life would be much easier if I took a secular job and avoided controversy. But I cannot. God radically changed my life by the power of His Spirit through His truth: “It’s like a fire in my bones! I am worn out trying to hold it in! I can’t do it!” (Jeremiah 20:9).

One of my great concerns is for the pulpits of America: many are exchanging truth for tolerance, boldness for balance, and conviction for cowardliness. We don’t want to offended lest we lose our audience. But truth is controversial—its convicts and challenges. We are not to seek the applause of men but the applause of God. The pulpit inevitably sets the tone of the religious climate of the nation. The lukewarm, sex-saturated culture simply reflects the lack of conviction in the pulpit as well as the pew. Granted, there are many wonderful pastors and churches—I appreciate their ministry, but, as a whole, the church has drifted off course.

The only difference between believers and unbelievers is that believers are simply forgiven—they have embraced God’s gracious gift of forgiveness, wholeness, and restoration through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Because of the cross, sin has been conquered and atoned for (cf. Romans 6). “If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9).

My goal is to simply share God’s gracious gift. If being labeled narrow-minded, legalistic, judgmental, arrogant, and intolerant is the cost of speaking the truth in love, so be it. In 2 Timothy 4:1-2, Paul instructs Timothy, “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.”

Paul is saying to preach the difficult truths as well as the joyful ones; preach the cross and the new life; preach hell and preach heaven; preach damnation and preach salvation; preach sin and preach grace; preach wrath and preach love; preach judgment and preach mercy; preach obedience and preach forgiveness; preach that God “is love,” but don’t forget that God is just. It is the love of God that compels us to share all of His truth.

Paul continues, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths” (2 Tim. 4:3-4). This should sound an alarm in the the heart of every preacher, pastor, and teacher to seriously reevaluate their ministry—are we encouraging sin by not warning? If so, we’re heading down a dangerous path. A.W. Tozer reminds us that we’ll stand to be judged someday: “That makes me both love Him and fear Him! I love Him because He is my Savior, and I fear Him because He is my Judge.” We must speak the truth in love despite the cost. Pastor Shane Idleman

 

Congratulations! Your reward in Heaven will be very great! Jesus said you are very blessed when the world curses you and your message.If you are not making enemie with your message, something is wrong....paraphrasing here....” blessed are you when you are cursed for my namesake, rejoice and be very happy for your reward shall be great”   “ if they persecute Me they will surely persecute you”     Keep up the good work —- you are certainly doing something right!

 

[Neighbor]

6 hours ago, Yowm said:

There are those that warn, let's say they are the eyes, then there are those that encourage, let's say they are the arms. etc. What I don't understand is why the arm tries to tell those that warn 'quit being the eyes' and why the eye tries  to tell those  that encourage 'quit being the arms'.  

Hi, I suggest  that it is not a matter of eye, ears, and parts of the body of Christ. It is instead the distraction by many litle antichrists, and by those deceived by them, saying the church is a dead place there is no living body at all, don't go there, don't partake, don't contribute, don't try to please God in all that you do, just lament and lament some more and stay away.

All those voicing the laments are not serving our Lord's will for us, they are in my opinion being suckered by the little antichrists among us even today. They are being defeated and separated from the body of Christ His church. And, as is the case in most things, misery loves company and is encouraged by the naysaying and the laments. 

Even Dr. David Reagan within his very fine presentations on prophecy has gone into a mode of defeat, stating America is now beyond redemption and will fail to exist at all, being eliminated by God. Such defeatism serves no good far as I see.  

God will save whom He will. He will not be defeated, nor will the church of Jesus who is God Lord and personal savior of all those given Him by His father. As for me, I am confident in Christ, in His church, and as a member of a local body of Christ I cherish all opportunity to be  of some service, any service at all that God will lead me to  do. I will strive to not be defeated, not as long as God gives me the comfort of his local body of Christ made up of the many saints, each born again and giving their own testimony of and in service to the Glory of God.

Praise God, especially for  His mercy, grace and long suffering patience.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Neighbor

[Neighbor]

52 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

America may indeed be beyond saving, but the Church was never America, or for that matter, any country in the world. Scripture tells us that we seek "a heavenly country":

" But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them" (Hebrews 11:16, NASB)

That said: this nation has been warned repeatedly by those who faithfully seek to serve the Lord. What we are seeing now is the decline of the United States as we approach the Tribulation, and as those times of trouble draw near, we need those who will warn to continue do so while we yet have time. Pretending that all people need is "just encouragement" is not going to show anyone that they have a need for the Lord, that sin is real, and the grievous turning away of this nation from the Lord is the effect of unrepentant sin and vile wickedness.

I indeed praise God for His mercy, grace and long suffering patience.  But nowhere in Scripture does it say that His patience will not come to an end...

 

....the Great Flood was evidence of THAT.

 I agree. None the less I will stand my post "encouraging"  all to avoid the naysayers and the lamenters, and instead to go about the business of Jesus' church body.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Neighbor

[Michael37]

6 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

 I agree. None the less I will stand my post "encouraging"  all to avoid the naysayers and the lamenters, and instead to go about the business of Jesus' church body.

So are there to be no messages from the book of Revelation containing exegeses of the letters to the ministers of the 7 ekklesias?

In a dictatorial cult would these verses be banned as "negative comments"?  

Rev 2:4
(4)  Nevertheless I have somewhat against you, because you have left your first love.
Rev 2:14
(14)  But I have a few things against you, because you have there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Rev 2:15
(15)  So have you also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Rev 2:20
(20)  Notwithstanding I have a few things against you, because you suffer that woman Jezebel, which calls herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Rev 3:2
(2)  Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found your works perfect before God.
Rev 3:15-17
(15)  I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot: I would you were cold or hot.
(16)  So then because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue you out of my mouth.
(17)  Because you say, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

How would Matthew 23 fare in cults with a "no criticism" rule?

e.g. Mat 23:13
(13)  But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for you neither go in yourselves, neither suffer you them that are entering to go in.

Exegeses of such passages are essential for the flock to edify one another with. 

[Neighbor]

17 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

So are there to be no messages from the book of Revelation containing exegeses of the letters to the ministers of the 7 ekklesias?

In a dictatorial cult would these verses be banned as "negative comments"?  

 

Hi, I have no idea where your mind is taking you, so I have no comment to offer regarding your  suppositions.

As for me I will share that I have found not just one, but have been led to churches plural of my Lord Jesus that read, study, and pray, over the word of God, then make every effort to make application of it to each  of the individual's of the local body of Christ, all to the glory of God.

There is encouragement to be found at the local body, it flourishes it is nurturied and is nurturing, for it is many individuals each individually called by the Holy Spirit from sin against God to repentance and service to God, each  as bond-servants. My hope is certain, for it is placed in Christ Jesus.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Neighbor

[Heleadethme]

15 hours ago, Neighbor said:

If you are to be personal in your response then I can only state it is a very bad guess on your part.  The last days have lasted for hundreds  and hundreds of years now. In the further coming of the last days there will be a great awakening  led by the Holy spirit too. All of Israel, to save many, one hundred and forty four thousand of the most blessed born again Jews  all saints in Christ jesus name going about to proclaim Jesus is Lord, just as the eleven elders of the local church God has led me to does today,  along with the many deacons, deaconesses, missionariaries, those gifted and practicing their spiritual gifts as lay persons, all  saints  doing today and every single day all to the Glory of God.

One can proclaim doom  and gloom and lament, and bbe paralyzed by it,or one can get off their laments and serve God as they are being  led, each going into all the world in some fashion, even just down the street or across the household table sharing of Jesus so that many may be presented as mature in our Lord Jesus.

 Hope is certain when it is placed in the Lord Jesus. Be the vestige, the remanent, the runner that runs the entire course, and not of the one's that have faded when the race has been  nearly run it's full course. Be confident in Christ for He as won victory over even the final enemy death:

Jeremiah's Complaint

Righteous are you, O Lord,
    when I complain to you;
    yet I would plead my case before you.
Why does the way of the wicked prosper?
    Why do all who are treacherous thrive?
You plant them, and they take root;
    they grow and produce fruit;
you are near in their mouth
    and far from their heart.
But you, O Lord, know me;
    you see me, and test my heart toward you.
Pull them out like sheep for the slaughter,
    and set them apart for the day of slaughter.
How long will the land mourn
    and the grass of every field wither?
For the evil of those who dwell in it
    the beasts and the birds are swept away,
    because they said, “He will not see our latter end.”

The Lord Answers Jeremiah

“If you have raced with men on foot, and they have wearied you,
    how will you compete with horses?
And if in a safe land you are so trusting,
    what will you do in the thicket of the Jordan?
 For even your brothers and the house of your father,
    even they have dealt treacherously with you;
    they are in full cry after you;
do not believe them,
    though they speak friendly words to you.”

“I have forsaken my house;
    I have abandoned my heritage;
I have given the beloved of my soul
    into the hands of her enemies.
My heritage has become to me
    like a lion in the forest;
she has lifted up her voice against me;
    therefore I hate her.
Is my heritage to me like a hyena's lair?
    Are the birds of prey against her all around?
Go, assemble all the wild beasts;
    bring them to devour.
Many shepherds have destroyed my vineyard;
    they have trampled down my portion;
they have made my pleasant portion
    a desolate wilderness.
They have made it a desolation;
    desolate, it mourns to me.
The whole land is made desolate,
    but no man lays it to heart.
Upon all the bare heights in the desert
    destroyers have come,
for the sword of the Lord devours
    from one end of the land to the other;
    no flesh has peace.
They have sown wheat and have reaped thorns;
    they have tired themselves out but profit nothing.
They shall be ashamed of their harvests
    because of the fierce anger of the Lord.”

 Thus says the Lord concerning all my evil neighbors who touch the heritage that I have given my people Israel to inherit: “Behold, I will pluck them up from their land, and I will pluck up the house of Judah from among them.  And after I have plucked them up, I will again have compassion on them, and I will bring them again each to his heritage and each to his land.  And it shall come to pass, if they will diligently learn the ways of my people, to swear by my name, ‘As the Lordlives,’ even as they taught my people to swear by Baal, then they shall be built up in the midst of my people.  But if any nation will not listen, then I will utterly pluck it up and destroy it, declares the Lord.”

 

 

2Th 2:2-3

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Ti 4:3

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

I'm just reasoning with you Neighbour.  Do you believe that Jesus is returning soon?  And that conditions in the world are ripening for the son of perdition to come on the scene?  If so, then where is the falling away?.....it must be occurring if we are near the end.....?

I'm sure you have noticed that our formerly Christian societies have fallen away from adhering to Christian laws and morals........and that is the proof in the pudding that the church in general has fallen away and is no longer salty......it has lost ground and is no longer leavening and having dominion over the society around it. 

It's not that the Lord isn't in control over all these things....but it's about seeing what He is doing and what He is allowing to happen as foretold.  It serves no purpose at all to deny what is taking place in reality.......shouldn't we face it and be preparing for what comes next?  That is why we have been given prophecy so we  have an idea of the time and season we are in, and that day doesn't come on us unaware.  We need to be watching.

[Neighbor]

16 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

2Th 2:2-3

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Ti 4:3

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

I'm just reasoning with you Neighbour.  Do you believe that Jesus is returning soon?  And that conditions in the world are ripening for the son of perdition to come on the scene?  If so, then where is the falling away?.....it must be occurring if we are near the end.....?

I'm sure you have noticed that our formerly Christian societies have fallen away from adhering to Christian laws and morals........and that is the proof in the pudding that the church in general has fallen away and is no longer salty......it has lost ground and is no longer leavening and having dominion over the society around it. 

It's not that the Lord isn't in control over all these things....but it's about seeing what He is doing and what He is allowing to happen as foretold.  It serves no purpose at all to deny what is taking place in reality.......shouldn't we face it and be preparing for what comes next?  That is why we have been given prophecy so we  have an idea of the time and season we are in, and that day doesn't come on us unaware.  We need to be watching.

Hi, of course the last times have been and are occurring,  for nearly a couple thousand years now. Far as I know every single prophesy, every single event has been fulfilled that would restrain my Lord Jesus from his soon return. He could return even this moment.

That there is a falling away is a given.

It is not a given that there are no good churches, nor saints in Christ Jesus going about the work assigned by our Lord Jesus- go into all the world with the gospel of Jesus so that many may be presented  as mature in the Lord.

The fields are indeed ripe for harvest and the workers are few. That is no reason to sit lamenting and resigning to  a loss of anything, never mind a supposed loss of Christ's Church. That lament is the work of the little anti-christs among us doing their ministry of distraction keeping even some saints from rejocing and laboring  in the fields tending the harvesting as commanded by our Lord.

The times if allowed by God who is sovereign over all matters will get harder and harder still. Yet there will be even greater victory as the 144,000 of the very best salesman ever to be on earth will go about their ministry and many will be saved, before the end of the end times, and then the  beginning of eternity forward after all has burned away and a new earth with a new heaven  will be, and God will walk with his own in a place of His perfection.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Neighbor
spelling errors and punctuation changes

[Neighbor]

Further it is my privilege to be seeing more than one young person grow up at the local church, become educated in the Lord formally at Christian colleges, stay with the local church body,  becoming  teachers at the Christian school and growing  in office and responsibility and in standing, becoming deaons and now elders, or towards being an elder within the local body.

Plus I see their own children going from babies to school kids and even a few now in Christian colleges as the next gerneration, all under the support by the local body of Christ. It is grand, it is evidence that God is sovereign. I absolutely love the local congregations the individuals and the pastors, elders, deacons, and deaconesses, of the churches that the Holy Spirit has led me to  in my own journey.

God The Holy Spirit does not lead me astray. God is not a trickster. His church is real, it is for each saint to come together and to worship together and to live one for another under God.  

Edited August 6, 2018 by Neighbor

[warrior12]

Small Churches, Mega churches,  it does not matter.  The accepted theology of any particular Church is the fundamentals by which they preach their interpretation of the word.  Every believer has to do his homework and search out diligently the Church or place of worship that he in his heart stands by as the truth of the gospel.  If he is not like the Bereans and search out the scriptures diligently, then  he may take for granted that all Churches statement of  faith and beliefs as to the gospel are the same or similar and could be caught up in teachings to suite the worldly ways.  Yes, it is easy to accommodate teachings to itch the ear, if one is lazy and not search out word in the many formats available today.

A pastor will always preach what he believes is that particular "denomination" core theology is and in the case of non-denomination, then the swings can go anywhere.  Indeed, some mainstream denomination has taken 180 degrees from their theology and has now accepted lifestyles and what is clearly pronounced as sin to be in their constitution and therefore the Church as a whole has to be scrutinized very carefully by a person looking for solid teaching.  It was foretold  that the times would come like this. 

[Still Alive]

On ‎8‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 10:59 PM, Gideon said:

Consider: When was the last time you heard a sermon with any sort of a warning, an exhortation, or a rebuke coming from the pulpit of your church? We are living in an age where the gospel message is nothing  but good things, where things like repentance, counting the cost, or hating ones life are deemed unnecessary to those who have come to the deeper understanding of grace. 

 

As we read the New Testament, there are countless scriptures from various men of God, including Peter, Paul, James and John and yes, even Jesus Himself that are there for warning, teaching, correction, rebuke, chastening and instruction in righteousness. 

 

We pride ourselves as “spirit filled believers” that we believe and take to heart the whole word of God, that every word is God breathed. But do we? Do we really? You see, the truth is,that we are sitting under pastors and teachers that we admire, that we think we are in agreement with, but when was the last time you heard your pastor warn you about sin, or worldliness, or the love of money, or of a gospel that tickles itching ears? 

 

You see, if we find that as we sit under our pastor, listening to him share his take on the gospel with us Sunday after Sunday, and almost never do we hear the balance that we see so clearly in the New Testament, is there not a red flag that ought to pop up in our souls? 

 

We are told that in the last days, men are going to heap to themselves teachers that will scratch their itching ears, telling them what they want to hear, rather than what they need to hear. Hmmm.... Maybe it is not the pastors leading us astray, but visa verse. Ouch. 

 

Paul tells us in Romans 11:

 

Behold therefor the goodness and the severity of God. On them which fell, severity, but towards thou goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise, thou also shalt be cut off.”

 

Romans 11:22

 

My point here is not to say we are missing all the “bad stuff”  so let’s concentrate on that, fill everyone with fear, and a healthy dose of legalism,  and restore balance to our gospel. What I am trying to point out is that our gospel compass has become flawed, and just concentrating on those perceived negatives for a while will not fix it. Darkness approaches. Will we be raptured away? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But if we do not get our gospel compass fixed, it will not matter. 

 

And how do we escape this situation where we talk a lot about God but have somehow let ourselves be led astray from the real purpose of the gospel, which is our abiding in Christ Himself? 

 

I pray you hear my words. Until we can admit that we are desperately in need of discovering the HOW of abiding in Him, where it is no more us that live, but Christ who now lives in us, we can heap together more pastors that will fill us with a gospel with no balance, or, conversely, align ourselves with hard God-fearing pastors that warn us till the cows come home to beware this, or beware that, and it will make little difference. Both lack one thing..... life. 

 

In these last days, God is even now beginning to awaken us to our great need, and praise God, to His greater supply. The early church flourished and turned the world upside down, not because of their missionary programs, or because of their lavish sanctuaries replete with great programs for the children. The love they shared was plain to be seen by others on the outside, all because of one thing. The life of Christ was beating in their breasts. 

 

Is this not the great fix desperately needed for our broken compass? We have been healed, but only slightly. We have been trained to defend our take on the gospel for if we do not, and admit that our take on it has shortcomings, we will open floodgates of doubt. But let us remember, it was Laodecia who said ‘We have need of nothing.’ If we are to get anywhere, honesty with God is the first order of business.

 

God has a walk for each one of us that defies what we can even imagine. Our birthright is victory over the world, the flesh and the devil. We are told that we are to be made  overcomers, yet how we limit the Holy one of Israel to do that for us. In the coming days, the church is going to be  shaken. The mother of all church splits is about to take place..... the sheep and the goats will part company. 

 

And what will the determining factor be as to which side we end up on? Simple. 

 

Does our heart hunger after Him? 

 

When He asks each one of us “Lovest thou me more then these?” .... with ‘these’ being anything we can think of., or even all of them rolled up into one... will our answer be ‘yes, Lord.’?

 

Blessings, 

 

Gideon

 

I had the opposite experience when I moved from Seattle to Kentucky. I joined a Southern Gospel band and traveled around to many small churches, mostly, but not all, baptist. I did this for around two years.

My experience:

1. The pastors were almost all quite old, at least over 60 (I was in my early 60's BTW).

2. The pastors were either unpaid or verly low paid. e.g. $30 a month.

3. The pastors typically were not very good. In some cases, terrible. What I mean was that their message was not prepared - at all. They were rambling and just telling stories that often had little or no relevance to what little message they were trying to preach.

4. Most of them did a LOT of yelling.

5. The fire and brimstone hell message was the dominant message. It was pretty constant, actually. "Are you going to heaven, or are you going to hell?!"

6. The people, once they left their pews, were the most miserable people, as a group,  I've ever seen, with the exception of some of the real down and outers I met in the Seattle area.

The fire and brimstone message became more and more of a challenge for me utile one week, before I sang one of my songs, I told them your eternal fate is not about geography (heaven or hell). Rather, it is about condition (eternal life or the second death).

That was the last time I played with that band - the band members agreed with the "turn or burn" message.

I believe the book of Acts gives a good idea of how to share the gospel. Neither Jesus nor the apostles used fear to bring people to Christ. They used love and the offer of eternal life to the lost sheep. That is the message that matters. It's not called the "good news" for nothing.