The Fear of the Lord, The Beginning of Wisdom

[Shiloh62]

Anne,

Thank you for asking about true and deep love for God. Usually, people react like it's heresy to not fear God, but not FEARING Him is actually the deepest that love can be.

Is your deepest concern to be a good "Christian" (member in good standing) or to be a "Godlover"?

LOVE is a PRINCIPLE (dichotomy, you either LOVE "ONLY" or you don't truly love at all). Love (true love) is not RATIONAL (that is how you know it is TRUE love). Read 1 Corinthians chapter 13 (the LOVE chapter). Since God is LOVE, it is very important for a "Godlover" to understand "LOVE" (yet LOVE is irrational, it doesn't/can't MAKE SENSE, for eyes to see and ears to hear).

There are not 4 TYPES of love (as is commonly taught). Philos, eros, agape, and storge are types of love RELATIONSHIPS, not love itself.

God loves us, He doesn't also fear us (we should love Him and each other AS He loves us).

In Paul's time, some Jews/Israelites/Hebrews were coming to learn Jesus devotion, but couldn't completely shed all of their beliefs, practices, and traditions. Very often, Paul found himself repeatedly dealing with these old traditions and attitudes, that is why we don't receive a VERY CLEAR idea of what a NEW TESTAMENT devotion should be from scripture.

The new testament/covenant devotion is a LOVE (holy spirit) devotion (that is what the LIVING water that flowed from Christ's side is all about, 1 John 5:6, John 7:38).

When I was growing up, I didn't refrain from doing things wrong because of any retribution/reprisal/punishment (all of that would have been just, I wouldn't have held that against my dad), I refrained from doing wrong because WRONG IS WRONG. When I was rebellious and caused mischief, I would not RESENT my dad for teaching me the error of my way (my dad did not "punish" me, he taught me the error of my way, he never had to be DRASTIC in "punishment" unless I was EXTREMELY mischievious). I never FEARED him teaching me the error of my way (and am very glad he did) because I knew better than to fear his loving guidance/instruction.

That is where FEAR of God comes from (RESENTING His guidance, resentment is not done by a GODLOVER).

So, if you want to be a GODLOVER, do not resent His loving guidance (and He will teach you well the "depths of God", 1 Corinthians 2:10) so that you can have a "more excellent" devotion (1 Corinthians 12:31) based on "the GREATEST of these" (1 Corinthians 13:13) and you will have a "faith FOR FAITH" (Romans 1:17, Hebrews 11:6).

There is a second (deeper) message in the bible for those who wish to be a "GOD LOVER", but the "STRONG delusion" has always hidden it from those who are satisfied by simply being a member in good standing of man's religious system.

As "babes in Christ", we simply read the "doctrine of Christ" (Hebrews 6:1), but then should move on to a more mature relationship with God and become a God LOVER...

1 Corinthians 3:1

"But I, brethren, could not address you as spiritual men, but as MEN OF THE FLESH, as babes in Christ".

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/tran...;t=RSV&sf=5

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/tran...;t=RSV&sf=5

Originally, Jesus devotion was called "THE WAY"...

Acts 24:22

"But Felix, having a rather accurate knowledge of the Way".

...then became known as "Christian" (no spiritually legitimate reason)

Acts 11:26

"and in Antioch the disciples were for the first time called Christians".

All verses are from the RSV.

It appears that you are confusing fear and resentment-two different things.

[Gauntlet]

Yomo, I knew when to duck, though!

Seriously, I had great respect for my Daddy. When he was unhappy, it was best not to "push" his buttons.

When Daddy was agitated, it became apparent. As long as he was still sitting down, I was safe. As soon as he stood up....I knew the "belt" was coming next.

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

We fear the disciplinary action of our Father but we love Him just the same.

I have a healthy fear and respect of my Heavenly Father and live in reverence to Him.

Growing up in Ontario, Canada I felt much the same way about my father. Although Dad was "hands-on" and not shy about meting out physical discipline, it was usually just the threat of it, the immanence of it, that kept me in line. And because of the way I was raised, spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child is something I believe in.

Why are fathers intimidating? Because they are fathers. It's a good father that can put the fear of God into his child, as my own father did for me.

[Anne]

My upbringing was pretty similar, but I still love daddy

Though I do remember a time when I was not in fear of daddy, mummy or anyone for that matter..........my lack of fear, caused a lack of respect, and an increase in breaking of rules and boundaries, I guess you could say my lack of fear allowed a rebellious nature to evolve.

[Gauntlet]

Anne,

I was never under the impression that you were in any way devoid of love (much to the contrary), but thank you for being considerate enough to make sure I didn't misunderstand.

Human nature is that we each choose our own lifestyle and a "truth" that fits the lifestyle we choose (this is not real OBJECTIVE truth, it is SUBJECTIVE truth, it is a "truth" that we CHOOSE).

God had full control of what went into scripture. All events happened as they were supposed to so that everything would be available someday for us to learn from (if we choose to).

God had Pilate ask Jesus "What is truth?" because God wanted us to think about the reason Jesus was crucified. There was no OBJECTIVE reason/truth that Jesus should be punished by the state (He was innocent of all charges). Pilate sent Jesus to the cross because of the SUBJECTIVE truth that the people/crowds chose to live by.

Many people also CHOOSE to retain a fear of God even though their intention is to love Him properly, but that is because they would resent being taught the error of their way (we should NOT DO THIS). We should not resent God's reproof.

When young children feel neglected (out of jealousy for a sibling or whatever), they will sometimes deliberately be mischeivious in order to get attention from the parent. They do not resent the attention of the parent (even though that attention is uncomfortable), they WANT the attention of the parent (and they hope that the attention is instructive). The PRINCIPLE is that they WANT that LOVE,...they LOVE the parent (even though seeking chastisement doesn't make sense). This is the earthly/wordly way called "PUNISHMENT", it is not the way God does things, but you can see why I say that love is not logical, love goes BEYOND rationality.

God TEACHES us the error of our way so that we LEARN to do BETTER the next time, He does not "cause pain/suffering (torture) in anger or temper". We should value His reproof and look forward to it, if and when it is absolutely necessary.

The heavenly father's name (that He wants to be known by FOREVER) is "I am who I am", His name is not...

I AM "The education authorities, The colleges and universities, The scientific community, The theologists, and The Bible colleges".

He wants us to do our own thinking and be who we EACH are so that we can be...

1) happy

2) no one's "doormat"

3) and so that He can also have a truly PERSONAL relationship with the real person we are (with all of our idiosyncracies, habits, shortcomings, etc.).

The traditional teaching that we should "surrender"/discard the true SELF is WRONG (there should be NO "self abasement/belittlement, Colossians 2:18).

We should love others ONLY AS MUCH as we love ourselves, not MORE THAN we love ourselves (I don't know of any sane or emotionally stable person on earth that has the need or desire to show love to themselves). Mark 12:31 simply means that we should RESPECT each other's humanity (the true teaching about "love" has not been taught).

Scripture is misunderstood because it has always been taught wrong. The pastors/ministers, priests, scholars and everybody who makes money by teaching "religion" (man's "spirituality", not GOD'S spirituality) has always had the bias of keeping control of us through "FEAR of God".

Because the person at the well (John chap. 4) was always looking for true love, she had the wisdom to recognize "Messiah" while the disciples still called Him "Rabbi". She also noticed what few people ever noticed (the LIVING water).

When I say that "love is a PRINCIPLE", I'm talking about TRUE/deep/genuine love being SINGULAR (either/or, it does not have "LEVELS" and is not determined by the obedience of a "puppet",...some people try to love God only if He does what you want like a "puppet"?, that's impossible because it's not true love).

The "moneychangers" have always taught us WRONG.

Wisdom begins with love. Wisdom cannot be forced, neither can the kingdom of heaven be "forced" with books, rituals/gestures, procedures, etc.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/tran...;t=RSV&sf=5

It is not reasonable to believe that GOD needs (has a NEED for) "respect".

What a great post!

[tsth]

You cannot enter in by another door. Either you recognize God the Almighty and His "Lordship" or you do not. If you are trying to get around the fact that God is Holy, by saying that He is instead loving, it does not work that way. He is both. He is mighty and loving.

You might want to read the rest of Hebrews Chapter 12. It talks about God as Father and discipline. It also talks about His Majesty.

Hebrews 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[OneLight]

Anne,

Many people also CHOOSE to retain a fear of God even though their intention is to love Him properly, but that is because they would resent being taught the error of their way (we should NOT DO THIS). We should not resent God's reproof.

The fear that is being spoken of in Proverbs 1 is to respect, revere God for Who He is, not to be afraid of Him, unless you are lost, then one should fear the One who can destroy both the body and soul.

Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

When young children feel neglected (out of jealousy for a sibling or whatever), they will sometimes deliberately be mischeivious in order to get attention from the parent. They do not resent the attention of the parent (even though that attention is uncomfortable), they WANT the attention of the parent (and they hope that the attention is instructive). The PRINCIPLE is that they WANT that LOVE,...they LOVE the parent (even though seeking chastisement doesn't make sense). This is the earthly/wordly way called "PUNISHMENT", it is not the way God does things, but you can see why I say that love is not logical, love goes BEYOND rationality.

God TEACHES us the error of our way so that we LEARN to do BETTER the next time, He does not "cause pain/suffering (torture) in anger or temper". We should value His reproof and look forward to it, if and when it is absolutely necessary.

The heavenly father's name (that He wants to be known by FOREVER) is "I am who I am", His name is not...

I AM "The education authorities, The colleges and universities, The scientific community, The theologists, and The Bible colleges".

He wants us to do our own thinking and be who we EACH are so that we can be...

1) happy

2) no one's "doormat"

3) and so that He can also have a truly PERSONAL relationship with the real person we are (with all of our idiosyncracies, habits, shortcomings, etc.).

The traditional teaching that we should "surrender"/discard the true SELF is WRONG (there should be NO "self abasement/belittlement, Colossians 2:18).

I agree! Our true self is not who we use to be before being saved, but who Christ has made us to be! Praise God! But to continue to live in the "old man", calling that our "true self" is completely against scripture. Colossians is talking about the difference between legalism and Christ, not the freedom to continue in our old ways as many take it to be. To try to change ourselves through the law is futile, and the result is death. To allow the Holy Spirit to change us, putting off the old man and becoming a new man in Christ is exactly what this scripture is talking about.

Scripture below states that we are to no longer live in the flesh, or the old man. Paul was very clear that we are to no longer sin, so that His grace should abound.

Romans 6:1-14

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

We are to put on the new man.

Ephesians 4:17-32 (New King James Version)

The New Man

This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

But you have not so learned Christ, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Do Not Grieve the Spirit

Therefore, putting away lying,

[tsth]

These are worthy of consideration:

Provers 23:15 My son, if your heart is wise, My heart will rejoice--indeed, I myself; 16 Yes, my inmost being will rejoice When your lips speak right things.

17 Do not let your heart envy sinners, But be zealous for the fear of the Lord all the day; 18 For surely there is a hereafter, And your hope will not be cut off.

Proverbs 24:19 Do not fret because of evildoers, Nor be envious of the wicked; 20 For there will be no prospect for the evil man; The lamp of the wicked will be put out.

21 My son, fear the Lord and the king; Do not associate with those given to change; 22 For their calamity will rise suddenly, And who knows the ruin those two can bring?

If it applies to the first churches, surely it must apply to us as well:

Acts 9:30 When the brethren found out, they brought him down to Caesarea and sent him out to Tarsus. 31 Then the churches F48 throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and were edified. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, they were multiplied.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You." 6 As He also says in another place: "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek"; 7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

In His Love,

Suzanne

[traveller]

Thank you for the thread tsth.

A quick reminder to everyone - the Study Forum is not intended for debate. We have other areas for that. While you may respond with questions or insights, please keep the arguments elsewhere. If you feel the need, start another thread in controversial.

[Anne]

sorry

[yesult]

Great scriptures. When we start losing our reverent awe for God and the things of God it's a good barometer of where we are as christians. Also where christian leadership is. Because without that, or if it's compromised, it'll trickle down into all sorts of other areas.

And a new believer is obviously not necessarily going to be really strong in this because they're usually finding out about Gods goodness and gentleness at that point which is great. But if a believer stays in that place then there's a real problem.

When christians stay on the milk level of christianity they stay immature, because without deep reverence (respect/healthy fear) of God and his mercy and justice, they arn't led by wisdom. Because without a (healthy) fear of God, true wisom is impossible.

I hate seeing preachers only preach milk christianity because it makes people feel good and keeps them in their seats. You see too much of it in pentecostal churchs. (I have anyway.) Particularly mega-churchs. But then if you arn't going to disciple people you don't really have a lot of choice. However the result is a lot of christians walking around thinking that God is all about them.

It's really unhealthy.