Transubstantiation Unsubstantiated Substantially :P

[DignifiedResponse]

What about? -

Ecclesiastes 9:7 KJB - “drink your wine with a merry heart, for God approves what you do.”

Solomon is speaking about enjoying the goodness of life for the sake of its own goodness, in the days of vanity (if there is no God and judgment he says, but he knows there is), in the good things (wife, fresh oil, white clean garments (unstained), and the fruit of the harvest, the grape juice:

Ecclesiastes 9:7 KJB Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

Proverbs 17:22 KJB - A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

 

(alcohol is actually dehydrating, and causes sorrow, woe, etc. but the fresh juice of the grape is invigorating, life-giving, filled with nutrients, phytochemicals and tastes really good, and is like medicine, for healing)

Ecclesiastes 9:8 KJB - Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.

Ecclesiastes 9:9 KJB - Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.

People that generally cite all of these texts have spiritual 'beer-goggles' on.  Everywhere they look, they see alcohol. They will yet seek it again, as it is written, and there is a woe upon them and the Great Whore who deals out the corruption and abomination of her fornication in her golden cup:

Proverbs 23:29 KJB - Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
Proverbs 23:30 KJB -They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
Proverbs 23:31 KJB - Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
Proverbs 23:32 KJB -At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
Proverbs 23:33 KJB -Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
Proverbs 23:34 KJB -Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
Proverbs 23:35 KJB -They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

If these ask Jesus, He will free them from their condition of spiritual inebriation.

[DignifiedResponse]

What about? -

Isaiah 25:6 – God will provide a feast of rich foods and choice wines.

Isaiah 25 Is speaking about the destruction of Satan's kingdom (Babylon the Great), and the Advents of Jesus Christ and the great resurrections and victory over the grave, and in this Mountain (New Jerusalem/Kingdom):

Isaiah 25:1 KJB - O LORD, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth.
Isaiah 25:2 KJB -For thou hast made of a city an heap; of a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be built.
Isaiah 25:3 KJB - Therefore shall the strong people glorify thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear thee.
Isaiah 25:4 KJB -For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.
Isaiah 25:5 KJB - Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.
Isaiah 25:6 KJB - And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

The "feast of fat things", and "a feast of wines on the lees", "of fat things full of marrow", "of wines on the lees well refined", are actually paralleled:

[1A] "feast of fat things"

[2A] "a feast of wines on the lees"

[1B] "of fat things full of marrow"

[2B] "of wines on the lees well refined"

It is not speaking about dead animal flesh, but of the richness of the wedding feast that the LORD has prepared for those that love him. The "wines" "on the lees", means that which was "settled" or "preserved" [H8105, "שׁמנים", "sh'märiym"], and "well refined", is the "pure" Juice of the grape, again, without any trace of sin and corruption or intoxication, the word means, "purified" [H2212; "מזקקים׃", "m'zuQäqiym"], see Psalms 12:6. This has nothing to do with alcohol.

Psalms 36:8 KJB - They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures.

Psalms 63:5 KJB - My soul shall be satisfied as with marrow and fatness; and my mouth shall praise thee with joyful lips:

For just as at th wedding of Cana, God gifts the best last:

John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Again, not alcohol. Spiritual things are spirtually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14). Isaiah is using symbolic language to describe the richness and purity of the reward of Heaven and of things to come, the New Heaven and New Earth.

Matthew 22:9 KJB - Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

Matthew 22:10 KJB -So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

Luke 14:23 KJB - And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

 

Revelation 22:17 KJB - And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

As it is written:

Luke 19:12 KJB - He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Isaiah 13:5 KJB - They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

Daniel 7:13 KJB - I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Daniel 7:14 KJB -And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Isaiah 62:3 KJB - Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.

Isaiah 62:4 KJB -Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.

Isaiah 62:5 KJB - For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

 

 

See the Holy Mountain:

 

Isaiah 11:9 KJB - They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 56:7 KJB - Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Isaiah 57:13 KJB - When thou criest, let thy companies deliver thee; but the wind shall carry them all away; vanity shall take them: but he that putteth his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain;

Isaiah 65:11 KJB - But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
 

Isaiah 65:25 KJB - The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 66:20 KJB - And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

See also Malachi:

Malachi 4:1 KJB - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Notice the victory, when Jesus comes with all His angels:

Isaiah 25:8 KJB - He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Isaiah 25:9 KJB - And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

See this in the OT:

Daniel 12:1 KJB - And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12:2 KJB - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:3 KJB - And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

See this in Job:

Job 14:10 KJB - But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
Job 14:11 KJB -  s the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
Job 14:12 KJB - So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 KJB - O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 KJB - If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 KJB - Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

See this in the NT:

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

[DignifiedResponse]

8 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

While I am against Transubstantiation, I am Bullinger (symbolic but has spiritual effects but is not the literal body and blood of Christ), I do know where Catholics got the idea (cites John 6:54-56 and also,"I personally think Jesus elaborated on this at the Last Supper" John 19:1-3,33-34):

I am "Bible" (KJB).   

I think Jesus was perfectly clear in both John 6, "Joh 6:57  As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. ", and at 'the Last Supper'.  "... this do in remembrance of me ...", which was that He "took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them" and so also the cup, 'And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;"

Mat 26:28  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29  But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

[DignifiedResponse]

What about? -

Amos 9:14 – God declares that His people shall plant their vineyards and drink their wine.

Amos is speaking about the new Heavens and New Earth wherein is no corruption, no alcohol, but the fresh juice of the grape will be there:

Amos 9:8 KJB - Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.

Amos 9:9 KJB - For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

Amos 9:10 KJB - All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.

Israel of old was indeed sifted, and so too with Israel anew, see Ezekiel 9; Revelation 3:10, 17:12.

Yet, Amos 9:11-12 KJB, are quoted in the NT, by James in the Council of Acts 15, in the buliding up of the tabernacle/temple of David (Jesus), in the matter of Jews and Gentiles repenting unot God and accepting Jesus as the Messiah:

Amos 9:11 KJB - In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

Amos 9:12 KJB -That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

Acts 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

It then moves into the evangelizing the world, and then finally the spiritual Israel moving into their New Heavens and New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness:

Amos 9:13 KJB -Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.

Amos 9:14 KJB -And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.

Notice the parallelism in the verse itself in regards the "treader of grapes" (Jesus Christ; Revelation 14:14-20), which is the "wine", juice of the crushed fruit, that comes from winepresses (Isaiah 16:10; Jeremiah 48:33)

[1A] they shall plant vineyards

[1B] and drink the wine thereof

[2A] they shall also make gardens

[2B] and eat the fruit of them

Amos 9:15 KJB -And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

This is a fulfillment of the promise in Exodus 20:12 KJB:

Exodus 20:12 KJB - Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Ephesians 6:2 KJB - Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise

See also Isaiah and again notice the planting of vineyards, and their purposes and then when/timing and location:

Isaiah 65:18 KJB - But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isaiah 65:19 KJB -And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isaiah 65:20 KJB - There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isaiah 65:21 KJB - And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isaiah 65:22 KJB -They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isaiah 65:23 KJB -They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

Isaiah 66:21 KJB - And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 66:22 KJB - For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isaiah 66:23 KJB - And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 65:17 KJB - For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

See also:

2 Peter 3:13 KJB - Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:4 KJB - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Vineyards are for grapejuice, as God intended:

Psalms 107:37 KJB - And sow the fields, and plant vineyards, which may yield fruits of increase.

[DignifiedResponse]

What about? -

Zech. 10:7 – God says that when He saves His people, their hearts shall be glad as with wine.

Zechariah is speaking about the time of the latter rain, to grow the harvest of souls to fruition, in the final mercy to go to the world:

Zechariah 10:1 KJB - Ask ye of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain; so the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field.

Zechariah 10:7 KJB - And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD.

The two phrases are paralled:

[1A] "they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man"

 

[1B] "their heart shall rejoice as through wine"

[2A] "their children shall see it, and be glad"

[2B] "their heart shall rejoice in the LORD"

 

Their rejoicing is the LORD, the pure vine, who gives the pure wine, fruit of the vine which rejoices the heart of man, and makes glad the heart of sadness through salvation:

Psalms 19:8 KJB - The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Psalms 126:6 KJB - He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him.

Isaiah 65:18 KJB - But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

You are right, it is about salvation, not corruption. The fruit of the vine, Jesus is the vine, his people his branches, that are to bear the fullness of the fruit of the Holy Spirit - Love and all goodness:

John 15:1 KJB - I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

John 15:5 KJB - I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Galatians 5:22 KJB - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Ephesians 5:9 KJB - (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

For the firstfruit of the Holy Ghost is Love, even Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:20,23). It is the True Tithe that God desires returned, for God gave His Son. God planted the seed into the Heart soil of mankind, and patiently waited for the harvest, pouring down His Holy Spirit as water, sending the word, and expects the results of sowing that Seed (Jesus Christ, Genesis 3:15; Galatians 3:16; Revelation 12:17?

John 15:1 KJB - I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Timothy 2:6 KJB - The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.

James 5:7 KJB - Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

There is nothing of corruption and Belial, and intoxication here. Woe unto them that put sweet for bitter and bitter for sweet:

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Edited August 29, 2018 by DignifiedResponse

[DignifiedResponse]

What about (Apocrypha; 'catholic deuterocanon')? -

Wisdom 2:7 – “Let us take our fill of costly wine and perfumes!”

Sir. 31:25-28 – “Wine is like life if drunk in moderation.” God created wine to make us glad, so we rejoice in heart, and have gladness of soul.

Sir. 40:20 – “Wine gladdens the heart.”

2 Mac. 15:39 – this verse also describes the pleasure of drinking wine. The point is that all God made is good, and we are called to enjoy His good gifts, including drinking wine, as long as we do so in moderation. And while we drink in moderation, the miracle that Jesus performed at the wedding feast at Cana suggests that we can have a second glass! [link removed] [link removed]

Apocryphal materials are not scripture. Never will be, and therefore, I do not really need to refute these, as these are not accepted as Canon, and have serious problems with them.

As for the 'apocrypha ('catholic deuterocanon'), they were never accepted as Canon in the OT, not even by Jesus' day, nor Josephus' day.

"The apocryphal books were not admitted into the canon of Scripture during the first four centuries of the Christian church. They are not mentioned in the catalogue of inspired writings made by Melito, bishop of Sardis, who flourished in the second century, nor in those of Origen, in the third century, of Athanasius, Hilary, Cyril of Jerusalem, Epiphanius, Gregory Nazianzen, Amphilochius, Jerome, Rufinus, and others of the fourth century; nor in the catalogue of canonical books recognized by the Council of Laodicea, held in the same century, whose canons were received by the Catholic Church; so that, as Bishop Burnet well observes, "we have the concurring sense of the whole church of God in this matter." To this decisive evidence against the canonical authority of the apocryphal books, we may add that they were never read in the Christian church until the fourth century, when, as Jerome informs us, they were read "for example of life and instruction of manners, but were not applied to establish any doctrine;" and contemporary writers state that although they were not approved as canonical or inspired writings, yet some of them, particularly Judith, Wisdom, and Ecclesiasticus, were allowed to be perused by catechumens. As proof that they were not regarded as canonical in the fifth century, Augustine relates that when the book of Wisdom was publicly read in the church, it was given to the readers or inferior ecclesiastical officers, who read it in a lower place than those books which were universally acknowledged to be canonical, which were read by the bishops and presbyters in a more eminent and conspicuous manner. To conclude: Notwithstanding the veneration in which these books were held by the Western Church, it is evident that the same authority was never ascribed to them as to the Old and New Testament; until the last Council of Trent, at its fourth session, presumed to place them all (excepting the prayer of Manasseh and the third and fourth books of Esdras) in the same rank with the inspired writings of Moses and the prophets." - An Introduction to the Critical Study and Knowledge of the Holy Scriptures. by Thomas Hartwell Horne, B.D. of Saint John's College, Cambridge; rector of the United Parishes of Saint Edmund the King and Martyr and Saint Nicholas Acons, Lombard Street; Prebendary of Saint Paul's; New Edition, from the Eighth London Edition, Corrected and Enlarged. Illustrated with numerous maps and fac-similies of Bilical Manuscripts. Volume I. Philadelphia: Published by J. Whetham & Son, 144 Chestnut Street. Stereotyped by L. Johnson. 1841.; page 426 (left column) - https://archive.org/stream/anintroductiont07horngoog#page/n459/mode/1up

I will here quote (with slight modification) of my brother Sam Gipp, from his Answer Book, since it sums it up nicely:

"... 1. Not one of them is in the Hebrew language, which was alone (miniscule Syriac/Chaldee in Dan. 2:4(b)-Dan. 7:28, and some other small pieces) used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.

2. Not one of the writers lays any claim to inspiration.

3. These books were never acknowledged as sacred Scriptures by the Jewish Church, and therefore were never sanctioned by our Lord.

4. They were not allowed a place among the sacred books, during the first four centuries of the Christian Church.

5. They contain fabulous statements, and statements which contradict not only the canonical Scriptures, but themselves; as when, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in as many different places.

6. It inculcates doctrines at variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead...

7. It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assassination and magical incantation. ..." - Sam Gipp - https://samgipp.com/answerbook/?page=34.htm

If any want to utilize non-scriptural sources to justify the sin of alcohol drinking, they might as well cite the occult world, the atheist, the pagan, the vodun, the animist, the shaman, the rock star. They all love alcohol and mind altering drugs, so that it is easier for satan to possess the heart.

Edited August 29, 2018 by DignifiedResponse

[Fidei Defensor]

29 minutes ago, DignifiedResponse said:

I am "Bible" (KJB).   

I think Jesus was perfectly clear in both John 6, "Joh 6:57  As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. ", and at 'the Last Supper'.  "... this do in remembrance of me ...", which was that He "took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them" and so also the cup, 'And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;"

Mat 26:28  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29  But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Bullinger is one of three views:

1. Transubstantiation,

2. Symbolic (only symbolic, called Zwingli view)

3. Bullinger, it’s Symbolic but has Spiritual effects.

Scripture supports Bullinger’s case:

 “27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.[d] 31 But if we judged[e]ourselves truly, we would not be judged.32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined[f] so that we may not be condemned along with the world.” (1 Corinthians 11:27-32). 

For people to have gotten ill and Eve died proves it’s not only symbolic like Zwingli said. However, Transubstantiation is rules out in my view by Luke 22 ans John 19. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Fidei Defensor

[DignifiedResponse]

What about Noah?

Genesis 9:20 KJB - And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: 

Genesis 9:21 KJB - And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. 

Some will point to the events in the life of Noah as an example of drinking alcoholic wine, and cite him for 'casual (moderate) drinking of alcohol'.

They might as well cite Nabal (1 Sam. 25:36), that "son of Belial" (1 Sam. 25:17) for *wonderful* conduct (sarcasm).  Simply pointing to examples in the bible, where sinfu, or ignorance or surprise that leads to embarrassment, things happen to justify ones own sins and lusts and carnality, why bother?  Simply pointing to a bad or embarrassing example is no justification for more bad examples.  However, let us take a look at the events in Noah and see what happened.

Noah was given a name which meant 'rest':

Genesis 5:29  And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

Out of all the wickedness before the flood, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord:

Genesis 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

God said of Noah that he was "a just man and perfect in his generations" and that he "walked with God":

Genesis 6:9  These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

The Holy Ghost by Paul, said of Noah that he was one of "faith" and an "heir of righteousness which is by faith":

Hebrews 11:7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

The Holy Ghost by Peter, said of Noah, that he was "saved" and he was used by Jesus, through the Holy Ghost to preach to the sinners (those in the 'prison', bondage, the slavery of sin) in his own day:

Genesis 6:3  And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

1 Peter 3:18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Peter 3:19  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1 Peter 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 3:22  Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

God places Noah in the same class of righteousness and faithfulness as Daniel and job:

Eze_14:14  Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze_14:20  Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

The Holy Ghost by Peter, said that Noah was a "preacher of righteousness" and was not one of the "ungodly" which perished, but "suffer[ed] for righteousness' sake" and not "Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing" when the ungodly were around him while the Ark was being built, as they mocked, "where is the promise of his coming (Genesis 3:15)" (2 Pet. 3:4):

1Pe 3:14  But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

2Pe 2:5  And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Noah was commanded by God to take all the food that is eaten upon the ark:

Gen 6:21  And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.
Gen 6:22  Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

This was the fruit trees and green herb:

Gen 1:29  And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30  And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

This would include the grape vine, so that Noah could later "plant a vineyard" (Gen. 9:20).

The flood was global and covered all the earth destroying all air breathing land animals and man outside of the ark:

Let us go to the Biblical Flood ...:

As for the size of the Flood it was completely Global [as in not local, not 'ethnocentric', but rather was covering the whole surface of the entire earth below the heavens even as high as 15 cubits above the "then" highest mountains].

The Bible says that the whole earth (world, not land) was completely covered and water stood 15 cubits above the tallest mountains:

Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. (Genesis 7:20)

[1] First we see that the waters "prevail[ed]". "...the waters prevailed..." [Genesis 7:18,19,20,24] From the Hebrew [Tr.]: "gabar" meaning to "have strength over", "over-powering", etc. The waters "prevail[ed]" so much so, that "fifteen cubits upward" above the very "mountains were covered" and overcame, so that "all the high hills", being "under the whole heaven, were covered".

And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that [were] under the whole heaven, were covered. (Genesis 7:19)

[2] Secondly we read that all men ["all flesh" and "every man", vs 21], from "under the whole heaven" and all land animals and birds ["fowls also of the air" vs 3 and "fowl(s)" vs 8,14,21 and "fowl of heaven" vs 23], wherein is the breath of life, outside of the Ark were destroyed:

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. (Genesis 6:13)

And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein [is] the breath of life, from under heaven; [and] every thing that [is] in the earth shall die. (Genesis 6:17)

And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: (Genesis 7:21)

And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. (Genesis 9:11)

And I will remember my covenant, which [is] between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. (Genesis 9:15)

Consider carefully that the text is from the viewpoint of GOD ["before ME" Genesis 6:13, 7:1], and that which is "under the whole heaven", and not some localized, ethnocentric event. It would be meaningless to have those "fowls" which could fly enter into the Ark, the Clean Pairs [of Sevens] an the Unclean Pairs [by Twos], should the Flood not be indeed entriely global. It is easily demonstrated that Birds can fly away from and can escape a local flood, especially since the Flood did not cover all the mountains in a single day. In fact, animals know of disaster many hours and sometimes even days in advance of men, and would have fled before it even happened, but instead we see them miraculously brought to the Ark by God, in Pairs! Mankind also who were left outside of the Ark, too could just as easily flee to another location through various means should the flood be merely local. The Antediluvians were no fools [though such, not to enter the Ark] to stand around while waters arose, for these men were of giant intellect, knowing city building [Genesis 4:17], metalurgy [Genesis 4:22], fine craft like musical instruments, arts [Genesis 4:21], tent making [Genesis 4:20], etc. [and we can even go to places in the world where such ancient remains are found of said civilization, massive stones, superb craftsmanship, surgery, things of exquisite and even unrepeatable design, more on this later]

[3] Thirdly, the Covenant that God makes with Noah and "all flesh" is universal [entirely global] in scope. Look again at the Promise and Covenant made by God:

And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. (Genesis 9:11)

And I will remember my covenant, which [is] between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. (Genesis 9:15)

The Promise and Covenant of God then made would be meaningless, as would be the sign ["[rain]bow" Genesis 9:13] given to "all flesh". If the Flood only destroyed a local [ethnocentric] locale then the Promise is worthless Biblically, for endless floods and disasters have since come upon the earth and wiped out many peoples, and beasts. Just look at the recent destruction in Japan, and further back, New Orleans, etc.

I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. (Genesis 9:13)

However, God's promise stand's firm, in that never again would a Flood of water cover the whole earth, even though in the very end times to come, "islands" will flee away at the coming destruction.

[4] Fourthly, God made all men, and not just those in “Noah's valley” [ethnocentric locale]:

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:26)

And so, God was angry with all mortals ["all flesh"] upon the Earth:

The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. (Genesis 6:11)

And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. (Genesis 6:12)

[5] Fifthly, God had ALL the fountains of the great abyss break up, not just some localized [ethnocentric] fountains, nor few fountains, but ALL:

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. (Genesis 7:11)

The Bible declares that the great abyss is below the entire surface of the earth, and not merely localized to “Noah's valley” [ethnocentric locale]:

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (Genesis 1:2)

[6] Sixthly, the Flood lasted much longer than 40 days and 40 nights [in which it rained], for it lasted roughly a little over a year [370], counting the entirety of time:

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. (Genesis 7:11)

And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. (Genesis 7:12)

And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first [month], the first [day] of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry. (Genesis 8:13)

And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried. (Genesis 8:14)

The Rain, from the floodgates of the sky, was not the only part of the Deluge, but also the vast amounts and endless volumes of water which burst forth from beneath the earth in the breaking up of the great abyss:

The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained; (Genesis 8:2)

The remainder of scripture also gives:

Job says:

Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood: (Job 22:16) [speaking of all of the wicked men and the way in which they had trodden, verse 15]

Isaiah declares a global flood:

For this [is as] the waters of Noah unto me: for [as] I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. (Isaiah 54:9)

Peter makes it quite clear that God destroyed them all and took them all away (buried in water, a figure of complete immersion of baptism, then after to be covered in fire), only 8 souls of mankind being saved [Noah "only" and his family and their wives Genesis 7:23]:

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3:20)

The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 3:21)

And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; (2 Peter 2:5)

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, (2 Peter 3:3)

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (2 Peter 3:5)

Whereby the world that then was, being, overflowed with water, perished: (2 Peter 3:6)

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (2 Peter 3:7)

Several words used by Peter in the Greek for this flood are, "Kosmos", universe, totality of something [like of the earth/planet], and "kataklyzō", 1) to overwhelm with water, to submerge, deluge [like Baptism, complete total immersion/submersion] [it is also where we get the word cataclysm] and Peter directly equates that Global judgment by water to the one to come by fire - total global judgment.

[7] A seventh serious matter, would be to localize the Flood to an ethnocentric locale would then cripple the Final Judgment of scripture to an ethnocentric locale, as Peter equates them together, one the forerunner of the other [a world baptised in Water, then also Fire, like as we]. Scripture is more than clear on the global fires to come [can be cited if necessary].

[8] Eighth, in even that Jesus Himself says that they were all destroyed in the flood, and relates the flood to the final judgment by fire [which will cover the whole Earth, Revelation 20, etc]:

But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matthew 24:37)

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, (Matthew 24:38)

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matthew 24:39)

And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. (Luke 17:26)

They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. (Luke 17:27)

All of the wicked humans were destroyed by the Flood and only 8 humans were spared - yet Satan lived through the flood and continued to entice...

Other mentions of the great flood:

Thou coveredst it with the deep as [with] a garment: the waters stood above the mountains. (Psalms 104:6)

Others, seeking to make excuses, cite other passages, but do not consider their context, and so dealing with 'roaring lions' and 'here be dragons'...

Psalms 104. Deals with the totality of the waters from their Creation [Psalms 104:5-6a], to their covering the Earth [Psalms 104:6b-8], to no more again covering the whole earth by God's covenant [Psalms 104:9-13, etc].

Job 38. Speaking about the omnipotence of God declaring that He controls and upholds all things and sets their bounds, whether they be held or released for His purposes. The time of Job is after the Global Flood and before Abraham. Job fully believed in the Globality of the Flood, see noted passages above or [Job 22:15-16, 26:5,12; etc].

Proverbs 8. Again as Job, signifying God's Omnipotence and His controlling and upholding all things by His Power, He setting their bounds, whether they be held or released for His Purposes. They should not "pass HIS commandment", nor can they do otherwise than to respond to HIS will, as was done in the Global Flood.

These are not the only reasons, but just a few of the Major ones, and a list of over 100 [scripturally and scientifically] could be cited, as has been done by others. No matter what one currently believes [atheist or Christian, etc], if they are true to the scriptures in what they plainly teach and say [whether or not you actually believe it], they cannot objectively come to any other conclusions based upon its own consistent and internal evidence that the Noachian Flood was indeed Global and only 4,500 years ago [est].

There is no room for a "compromised" position, no room to be sitting on the fence.

Additionally [The Global Flood totally wipes out the evolutionary and long age model. How so? Think about it. What does it mean for the evolutionary timescales if all life [basically] had to start from square one only 4,500 years ago. It cannot be both ways. Compromise is impossible.]

After Noah got out of the Ark (after a year (est.) in the Ark), he sacrificed unto God and God made an eternal covenant with him, which is the continuation of Genesis 3:15, see Genesis 9:1-17 KJB.

Then we read, and interesting event in the life of righteous Noah:

Genesis 9:18  And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.
Genesis 9:19  These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.
Genesis 9:20  And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
Genesis 9:21  And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
Genesis 9:22  And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
Genesis 9:23  And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
Genesis 9:24  And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
Genesis 9:25  And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
Genesis 9:26  And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
Genesis 9:27  God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
Genesis 9:28  And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.
Genesis 9:29  And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

We see that Noah, was not a husbandmen yet, and was unlearned, but was in a new situation, and so, "began to be an husbandman" (Gen. 9:20).

There is no evidence that Noah was such before, but just began to be such, and therefore would have not have all the knowledge of grapes that were crushed and left outside, or even inside for very long, in the new conditions that the earth was under, the several curses.

So, in his new experience, "he planted a vineyard".

We can see that the process of time takes place between Genesis 9:20, and Genesis 9:21, since 'grapes' which come from the 'vine', do not ferment immediately, but will begin to depending upon the surrounding conditions (such as temp.) and the container that they are in.

Noah was not in a valley, but high up in a mountainous area of the Ararat (Gen. 8:4) for the Ark landed, somewhere near "the tops of the mountains" (Gen. 8:5), and in a short time the ground was dry from the wind, and higher elevation.  This would affect the conditions, such as higher elevation, closer to the sun, less atmosphere, no large trees for shade, and only the Ark and a "tent" (Gen. 9:21) for living quarters, and storage, etc.

God had "blessed" Noah (Gen. 9:1).

However, there was this incident in which Noah drank of the fruit of the vine, after it had enough time to ferment.  The water outside of the Ark would be brackish, and salty and nigh undrinkable, and so they had to rely on what they had available, or for the rains in their season in the seedtime and harvest (Gen. 8:22).

The text does not say that Noah knew that the fruit of the vine "wine" had become fermented and purposefully got drunk through the fermented fruit.  It just says that "Noah drank of the wine", which is simply the juice of the grape, then having become fermented through time and condition and continually partaking of it as it slowly fermented, like a frog in hot water, and so snuck up on Noah, taking him unawares.

The text then says:

Genesis 9:21  And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

And so, because of the effect of the (now alcoholic in content) juice ("wine"), Noah became hot and removed his clothing, and lay down in his tent.

Ham, his son, became aware of this, and looked upon his father, in the tent, and instead of "Honouring [his] father" (Exodus 20:12), went and told his brothers about the event, bringing shame upon his father.

Genesis 9:22  And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

However, the two brothers, when made aware of this about their father, did so "Honour [their] faither" (Exodus 20:12), and even covered their eyes:

Genesis 9:23  And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

When Noah woke up, and became aware of this event, through Shem and Japheth who told him, Noah said:

Genesis 9:24  And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
Genesis 9:25  And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
Genesis 9:26  And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
Genesis 9:27  God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

The curse upon Canaan, was because of the dishonour of Ham to Noah, and also showed his dishonour toward his heavenly Father (not loving his neighbour; Lev. 19:17-18, and so did not love God aright, Deut. 6:5).  The sins of the fathers, and their actions, attitude, are taught to their children, and thus Canaan would become like Ham, and so too their descendants (Canaanites).

The events in the life of Noah, are no example of 'causal ('moderate') drinking of alcohol', but is an exmple to always be watchful of the "fruit of the vine" (aka "wine")  when left too long, and becomes alcoholic, bringing confusiuon and nakedness (shame).  Therefore, so the spiritual.  Some take the fruit of the vine of the scripture and turn it into hemlock, and confusion, and so are naked and asleep in their "tent".

[DignifiedResponse]

1 hour ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Bullinger is one of three views...

 “27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.[d] 31 But if we judged[e]ourselves truly, we would not be judged.32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined[f] so that we may not be condemned along with the world.” (1 Corinthians 11:27-32). 

For people to have gotten ill and Eve died proves it’s not only symbolic like Zwingli said. However, Transubstantiation is rules out in my view by Luke 22 ans John 19. 

I disagree with you about 'one of three views' (for instance, Luther, for a time believed 'consubstantiation', which is also error), I disagree with your 'translation' (died), since the KJB (the scripture, the word of God preserved in English, Psalms 12:6-7, etc) says "sleep" (1 Cor. 11:30; "κοιμωνταιG2837 V-PPI-3P", koimwntai [G2837]) [while symbolically can mean death (as Lazarus), even spiritual death], and I am not a follower of Bullinger or Zwingli or Calvin, or Melanchthon, or Luther (though I love the reformers), or anyone else like them, but I follow the Lamb, Jesus.  I am "Bible", as I said.

I am glad that you do not hold to "Transubstantiation" as it is unscriptural.  I am not after Bullinger in this thread.  I am after the Meretrix (the Whore) of Revelation 17.  If you want me to assault Bullinger's view I will.  I will ask you to consider, I will come at it as I have Transubstantiation.  You are warned.  Thank you for your consideration.

Edited August 29, 2018 by DignifiedResponse

[Fidei Defensor]

51 minutes ago, DignifiedResponse said:

I disagree with you about 'one of three views' (for instance, Luther, for a time believed 'consubstantiation', which is also error), I disagree with your 'translation' (died), since the KJB (the scripture, the word of God preserved in English, Psalms 12:6-7, etc) says "sleep" (1 Cor. 11:30; "κοιμωνταιG2837 V-PPI-3P", koimwntai [G2837]) [while symbolically can mean death (as Lazarus), even spiritual death], and I am not a follower of Bullinger or Zwingli or Calvin, or Melanchthon, or Luther (though I love the reformers), or anyone else like them, but I follow the Lamb, Jesus.  I am "Bible", as I said.

I am glad that you do not hold to "Transubstantiation" as it is unscriptural.  I am not after Bullinger in this thread.  I am after the Meretrix (the Whore) of Revelation 17.  If you want me to assault Bullinger's view I will.  I will ask you to consider, I will come at it as I have Transubstantiation.  You are warned.  Thank you for your consideration.

Then you disagree with Church History which states three major views (Church History in Plain Languge, 4th Edition, Bruce L. Shelley and The Reformation by Diamand MCCulloch)),  and you hold to KJV which was commissioned by a Catholic King and Son of Mary Stuart (Mary Queen of Scots, who participated in Spanish Catholic Invasion with King Phillip II of Spain) whose name was James I of England and VI of Scotland. King James struggled because his sympathies were Catholic but he was head of the Anglican Church because of his grand father King Henry VIII separating from Roman Church over Ann Boleyn. King James is known to have removed Israel from Joel 3 promise, and he wanted baptism removed from being obligatory. 

As for saying Bullinger is wrong: I gave scriptural support for his view (1 Corinthians 11:17-34), and did not Jesus prove by the Last Supper it is spiritual and symbolic (Luke 22)? For Jesus is God and Man, so anything he institutes is spiritual. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Fidei Defensor