144,000?

[Marlene S]

On 1/7/2019 at 5:00 PM, iamlamad said:

Rev. 19 speaks of the marriage...  Yes, you get this one right. But take note that it is BEFORE Jesus returns to earth.

the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, which takes place after the destruction and judgment of the Great Whore. It is then that Christ who is KING of kings and LORD of lords appears in the clouds with His Heavenly Army. So the snatching away of the Bride/Church occurs before the Whore/false church is destroyed.  This makes no sense. Yes, the marriage DOES take place after the destruction. And it is then, after, that Christ descends. It is your next sentence that does not fit with what you just said. Notice your use of "so."  

The snatching away MUST come at a time Christ comes. You just said He comes AFTER the destruction. Are you then talking about a PREVIOUS coming, before the trib perhaps?

This is at the end of the Tribulation period after Anti-Christ has been in power.  I am not sure what this "this" is referring to. I will agree that chapter 19 is after the end of the tribulation. Is that your meaning?

This is the time right before the Angels pour out the seven vials of God's wrath upon the Earth.  Another "this!" Yes, Rev. 19 IS after the vials. But you wrote BEFORE the vials. When then are you referring to? Midpoint? Pretrib? If JUST before, I would have to say in Rev. 16.

Scripture does not say that the Church will not go through the Tribulation  I disagree. I think it does. Did you notice in 1 thes. 5 that Paul tells us the rapture will come JUST BEFORE God's wrath? We that are alive get raptured, but those left behind get His Wrath.  If you have no appointment with the dentist, you don't show up (usually). God said he will set no appointments. Paul's meaning is clear, HIS rapture as shown in 1 Thes. 4 will come just before God's wrath.

If we find the start of God's wrath in Rev. we find it is at the 6th seal. Therefore the rapture must come BEFORE the 6th seal that starts the wrath. 

Now, with the rapture located in REvelation, where is "the trib" or the 70th week? Where does it begin? I submit that it begins with the 30 minutes of silence at the 7th seal. Therefore Paul's rapture IS before the trib.

Then if we look in Rev. 7 we see the raptured church already in heaven BEFORE the 7th seal. Therefore I say the scriptures DO tell us of a pretrib rapture. Many people get led astray on the timing, thinking that the gathering in Matthew 24 is the rapture. It is not. It gathers from heaven. It comes after the trib, while Paul's gathering comes before.

Rev 7  speaks of those who suffer through the Tribulation and were saved by the preaching of the 144,000. You are ad libbing: there is not one word or hint that the 144,000 preach. 

What you miss: Paul's rapture will come a moment before the 6th seal. Then John SAW the raptured church in heaven in Rev. 7 as the crowd too large to number. Please take note: John has not even STARTED "the tribulation" yet in chapter 7. in fact, the days of great tribulation will not come until after the trumpet judgments.

The resurrection of the Dead happens right before Anti-Christ comes into power.  I hope y0u can find some scripture to back this up. I don't think there is such a scripture. The first resurrection of the dead (into resurrection bodies) are those that Jesus rose when He rose. I think they were the elders of the Old Testament. The next group to rise will be the Dead in Christ - and they will rise at Paul's rapture - just before God's wrath begins - at the 6th seal.

The next group I think will be the 144,000 around the midpoint of the week. Finally, the Old TEstament saints will rise at the 7th vial that ends the week.  The beheaded during the trib will rise with them.

Only one comment: The Tribulation is not the time of God's wrath. The Tribulation period is mainly for the Church during persecution. It is the Church that suffers through the Tribulation and that is not the same as God's wrath, which is poured out on the unbelievers and the demon-gods ruling here, at a later date/soon after. M.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Marlene S

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Marlene S said:

Only one comment: The Tribulation is not the time of God's wrath. The Tribulation period is mainly for the Church during persecution. It is the Church that suffers through the Tribulation and that is not the same as God's wrath, which is poured out on the unbelievers and the demon-gods ruling here, at a later date/soon after. M.

 

9 hours ago, Marlene S said:

Only one comment: The Tribulation is not the time of God's wrath. The Tribulation period is mainly for the Church during persecution. It is the Church that suffers through the Tribulation and that is not the same as God's wrath, which is poured out on the unbelievers and the demon-gods ruling here, at a later date/soon after. M.

Marlene, that is certainly a theory, but can it be proven with the word of God rightly understood?

First, what do you mean by "the tribulation?" Do you mean the 70th week of Daniel? If so, you should know that everything between Rev. 8 and Rev. 16 is included in Daniel's 70th week. What do we find inside that week? The wrath of God begins before the week, and continues on throughout the entire week, culmination in the vials of God's wrath, poured out to SHORTEN the days of great tribulation. In other words, according to John, God's wrath and Satan's wrath come at the same time. It is impossible to separate them according to time.

May people imagine that the 70th week begins with the first seal. They are mistaken. John is clear, the first seal was opened in 32 AD as soon as Jesus ascended. It is for the church taking the Gospel to the nations. The 70th week or "trib" as many call it, begins with the 30 minutes of silence at the 7th seal. The week is marked by 7's: 7th seal begins the week and the 7th vial ends it.  

I will follow John rather than man made theories.

Edited January 10, 2019 by iamlamad

[NOONE7]

Question on the 144,000.

Do some of them perish in this life and then go to heaven or are they victorious against the Beast throughout there life?

This verse makes me wonder if they are the unstoppable servants of God, on the earth.

Revelation 15:2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

[iamlamad]

Just now, NOONE7 said:

Question on the 144,000.

Do some of them perish in this life and then go to heaven or are they victorious against the Beast throughout there life?

This verse makes me wonder if they are the unstoppable servants of God, on the earth.

Revelation 15:2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

The Beast becomes the Beast after the midpoint of the 70th week. It seems the 144,000 are raptured to heaven about that time (They are seen in heaven in chapter 14). In other words, they won't see the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of.  The verse in chapter 15 are the martyrs were will be beheaded.  They got victory by not surrendering and taking the mark.

[NOONE7]

Just now, iamlamad said:

The Beast becomes the Beast after the midpoint of the 70th week. It seems the 144,000 are raptured to heaven about that time (They are seen in heaven in chapter 14). In other words, they won't see the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of.  The verse in chapter 15 are the martyrs were will be beheaded.  They got victory by not surrendering and taking the mark.

Thank you for your answer and thank your for such a quick response!!  

[iamlamad]

18 minutes ago, NOONE7 said:

Thank you for your answer and thank your for such a quick response!!  

Welcome. Many here will disagree, but this is truth anyway. The 70th week of Daniel, what many call "the trib," is marked by 7's: the 7th seal begins it, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it. That may help you keep timing straight. 

In chapter 11, look for a parenthesis - but not marked: 11:4 through 11:13 is written as a parenthesis. John takes us down the last half of the week with the two witnesses only. For chronology, these verses don't count. In other words, the two witnesses show up just before the midpoint, and testify for 1260 days, taking them to just before the 7th vial that ends the week. THEN they are killed.  It appears (for those that don't recognize this parenthesis) that the two witnesses are killed before the 7th trumpet. It is NOT as it first appears. Back then Greek used parenthesis, but had no marks to show them.

The trumpets happen in the first half of the week, and the vials in the second half.

[NOONE7]

On 1/10/2019 at 8:46 AM, iamlamad said:

The Beast becomes the Beast after the midpoint of the 70th week. It seems the 144,000 are raptured to heaven about that time (They are seen in heaven in chapter 14). In other words, they won't see the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of.  The verse in chapter 15 are the martyrs were will be beheaded.  They got victory by not surrendering and taking the mark.

Curios when you say raptured?   You are saying the 144,000 are raptured with the church?  Or a different time frame.   Just making sure on what you are saying.  I believe you are saying they are taken with the church at the same time.

[Marlene S]

On 1/9/2019 at 11:36 PM, iamlamad said:

 

Marlene, that is certainly a theory, but can it be proven with the word of God rightly understood?

First, what do you mean by "the tribulation?" Do you mean the 70th week of Daniel? If so, you should know that everything between Rev. 8 and Rev. 16 is included in Daniel's 70th week. What do we find inside that week? The wrath of God begins before the week, and continues on throughout the entire week, culmination in the vials of God's wrath, poured out to SHORTEN the days of great tribulation. In other words, according to John, God's wrath and Satan's wrath come at the same time. It is impossible to separate them according to time.

May people imagine that the 70th week begins with the first seal. They are mistaken. John is clear, the first seal was opened in 32 AD as soon as Jesus ascended. It is for the church taking the Gospel to the nations. The 70th week or "trib" as many call it, begins with the 30 minutes of silence at the 7th seal. The week is marked by 7's: 7th seal begins the week and the 7th vial ends it.  

I will follow John rather than man made theories.

Remember the Seven Thunders...

As a Christian, even though I believe in the Rapture, I have never thought that I would ascend with the Church. One of the things Christians do not realize is the the Church and the whole world will be deceived, except for the Elect. Who are the Elect?

I believe that I will be here till the end when Christ appears in the clouds with His army, belonging to those who are alive and remain.

What of the extra 45 days after the Tribulation ends?

 

Daniel Chapter 12

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

[Marlene S]

9 hours ago, NOONE7 said:

Curios when you say raptured?   You are saying the 144,000 are raptured with the church?  Or a different time frame.   Just making sure on what you are saying.  I believe you are saying they are taken with the church at the same time.

No, I do not think the 144,000 will be taken with the Church. The 144,00 will be here when and during Anti-Christ's reign is done with the world. Most everyone will believe his new religion and those Christians who refuse to submit, will be killed and imprisoned in many places throughout the world. The 144,000 will be refined at the end of the world when Christ the King returns with his army.

I will also say this. There are so many 'details' not found in Scripture, or the details we have, we do not really understand and we as Christians want to know who and what and when and why.

In this time, some things are given and it is the ones that see who will reveal. The 144,000 will be greatly persecuted by the Anti-Christ Abaddon/Apollyon as well as by Satan, who is the Assyrian. The False prophet is one who has a body prepared for him here and at the time when the boy becomes of age, the False prophet, who comes from the highest level of the 'so called' gods, will enter this man and perform great signs and wonders, so as to deceive the world. He also does it in the presence of the Anti-Christ. They are all BEASTS. Never having found the LIGHT of TRUTH.

The 144,000 re-educates the world in the truth of Christ and repentance and Salvation, which was lost due to the Anti-Christ and his counterfeit ministry. They (Beasts) are only interested in seeing/ discovering the power that lies within us. That is what they all want to know about, because with the power of Christ's Holy Spirit indwelling us, we Humans will be their judges along with Christ on the day they are judged and punished; we are more powerful than they are and they are all coming to Earth to destroy us in order to find the Spirit of Christ which dwells within us.

They also do not realize that it is a gathering of all the Fallen and demonic ones of the Creation. Here on Earth is where the judgment of all those who exist in the Created realms are judged and punished, Rev 18: 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Of course, they will fail, but not before Christians are decimated from the Earth. The great Tribulation is coming and the great deception will cause many to fall away, because EVERYTHING Christ promised us that would happen in the Last Days, The Anti-Christ will duplicate... and he deceived the whole world. And I think I gave you too much of a response, which I meant to write somewhere else, Peace and Love in Christ, Thanks, M.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Marlene S

[Marlene S]

4 hours ago, Abdicate said:

I'm sorry, but that's such new age thinking and actually against the word of God. The bible says what it means and means what it says. You have no basis on twisting the word of God in such a way. They are 12,000 men from each of the 12 tribes who are NOT defiled by a woman. That's the word of God. You do not know the word of God as you said you do.

I am not twisting the Word of God, for we worship CHRIST in SPIRIT and in TRUTH. Rev Chapter 14 and 15 go together, but you must read closer for the time line, because it is not apparent. Christ is a Spiritual Being and when we meet Him, we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, or we will be refined. we will either be new or older spiritual beings-  Virgin Spirits, or Redeemed Souls covered in the Spirit. M.