Amos 8:11-12

[S.C.1]

1 minute ago, Zemke said:

Well yes but prophecy is not just prediction and fulfilment, which it is, but a pattern. The Abomination spoken of by the prophet D 

The whole word PROPHESY means foretelling of future events or warnings from God. And there are prophesy types. I think that's the pattern you may be talking about.

One type would be a figurative (hey, listen here what could happen) like: 2 Chronicles 7:14  If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Then there are the literal hey, this is whats gonna happen prophesies like Amos 8:11-12.

[Zemke]

2 minutes ago, S.C.1 said:

The whole word PROPHESY means foretelling of future events or warnings from God. And there are prophesy types. I think that's the pattern you may be talking about.

One type would be a figurative (hey, listen here what could happen) like: 2 Chronicles 7:14  If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Then there are the literal hey, this is whats gonna happen prophesies like Amos 8:11-12.

I hit a wrong button so my post was incomplete. I added more but much more could be said.

[S.C.1]

14 minutes ago, Zemke said:

The Abomination that makes desolate

I see that. Thank you. So then what fully is the abomination that makes desolate?

[Zemke]

1 minute ago, S.C.1 said:

I see that. Thank you. So then what fully is the abomination that makes desolate?

In some way, the man of lawlessness will recapitulate what Antiochus did and many other types in the scriptures and through history. He will be all things to all people like Herod kind of was. Judas is another biblical type being the only other person called the son of perdition as is the antichrist. No one knew who Judas really was, he had everyone fooled except Jesus. He faked caring for the poor to make favour with people but also to enrich himself. He was a great guy it seemed to everyone.                               

The ultimate is him wanting to be worshipped as God by God's people. Standing in the holy place wanting worship as God. Conjecture is discussing how all these things will occur, but we really won't know until they actually do. What we have are types and past fulfilments that help us watch and stay ready. Discussing can be healthy to a point as long as we understand what is conjecture/possibility and the reality that it will be the ultimate in deception.

[S.C.1]

1 minute ago, Zemke said:

In some way, the man of lawlessness will recapitulate what Antiochus did and many other types in the scriptures and through history. He will be all things to all people like Herod kind of was. Judas is another biblical type being the only other person called the son of perdition as is the antichrist. No one knew who Judas really was, he had everyone fooled except Jesus. He faked caring for the poor to make favour with people but also to enrich himself. He was a great guy it seemed to everyone.                               

The ultimate is him wanting to be worshipped as God by God's people. Standing in the holy place wanting worship as God. Conjecture is discussing how all these things will occur, but we really won't know until they actually do. What we have are types and past fulfilments that help us watch and stay ready. Discussing can be healthy to a point as long as we understand what is conjecture/possibility and the reality that it will be the ultimate in deception.

Agreed, conjecture aside! So then here is a bit of holy reasoning for you. Do you think antichrist can do what he's prophesied to do with the word of God in his way?

[Zemke]

12 minutes ago, S.C.1 said:

Agreed, conjecture aside! So then here is a bit of holy reasoning for you. Do you think antichrist can do what he's prophesied to do with the word of God in his way?

 

 

Interesting statement,  Everything the antichrist will do is already foreseen by God and written for our learning. We are told that a restrainer will be taken out of the way. There are a number of arguments associated with that scripture but it is biblical that something restrains. 

Taking a break, I'll think about your question more.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Zemke

[S.C.1]

One other thing. Do you believe that any of that can happen without God allowing it to happen? That's a very serious question.

[wingnut-]

2 hours ago, S.C.1 said:

I also don't believe there is any certainty to it myself. So often, if not most times, I look at the prophecy in a literal context. If so, then the words of the Lord did not disappear at the time of Amos, nor in the O.T. and N.T. gap. Not even in the slightest. The words of the Lord have endured, even up to today. So then humor me if you will. What would be the fulfillment of this prophecy in the literal sense.

 

Well I suppose the first literal thing to denote, is that this prophecy is specific to the land of Israel, and to the Israelites themselves.  Amos was one of the last prophets, only a few followed him, Malachi being the last.  I would agree that the words of the Lord did not disappear, but the prophets were the mouthpiece for the Israelites in that time, and they did in fact disappear following Malachi.  Four hundred years of silence until the appearance of John the Baptist certainly qualifies as a famine of hearing the word of the Lord historically, as well as literally.  John the Baptist announced Jesus' arrival, and from the time of His ministry until the present, there has never been an absence of His word, because Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets and followed this with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.  The only way this could remain a future event as I see it, is if there was not one single believer left on the planet.  I don't see how that is possible according to my understanding of scripture.

I would add, if one is to look at this simply from a literal standpoint as you suggested, then one must conclude that it literally has nothing to do with anyone that does not qualify as belonging to the nation of Israel.  As evidence of this, I will offer a few examples from the prophecy.

 

Amos 8:2 And he said, “Amos, what do you see?” And I said, “A basket of summer fruit.” Then the Lord said to me,

“The end has come upon my people Israel;
    I will never again pass by them.
3 The songs of the temple shall become wailings in that day,”
declares the Lord God.
“So many dead bodies!”
“They are thrown everywhere!”
“Silence!”

 

Amos 8:7 The Lord has sworn by the pride of Jacob:
“Surely I will never forget any of their deeds.
8 Shall not the land tremble on this account,
    and everyone mourn who dwells in it,
and all of it rise like the Nile,
    and be tossed about and sink again, like the Nile of Egypt?”

 

God bless

[S.C.1]

2 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

I would agree that the words of the Lord did not disappear, but the prophets were the mouthpiece for the Israelites in that time, and they did in fact disappear following Malachi.

OK, I am seeing what your saying, but the Prophets were the spokesmen and their words were recorded as the Oracles of God (word). Hey, you're putting a lot of thought into this. Thank you.

4 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

Four hundred years of silence until the appearance of John the Baptist certainly qualifies as a famine of hearing the word of the Lord historically, as well as literally.

No, actually the Oracles of God (word) were still there.

5 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

I would add, if one is to look at this simply from a literal standpoint as you suggested, then one must conclude that it literally has nothing to do with anyone that does not qualify as belonging to the nation of Israel.  As evidence of this, I will offer a few examples from the prophecy. 

Again, well thought out. But literally, this the words of God. And Israel continued on by our being graphed into the tame olive tree. Romans 11

[wingnut-]

16 minutes ago, S.C.1 said:

No, actually the Oracles of God (word) were still there.

 

It may seem like semantics, but consider the following questions.  Would you say that they heard them?  Would you say that they are hearing them today?  If your answer is yes to either or both of those questions, then how do you explain the crucifixion and their continuing in unbelief  (Messianic Jews excluded of course) ?