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OSAS is the result of the finished work of the cross


Heb 13:8

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1 hour ago, Butero said:

This, coming from a believer in soul sleep, which clearly is not Biblical.  He isn't the one that needs to study things further and understand how to properly interpret scripture.  

Right, lol and most don't understand when scripture is describing visions like the 5th seal. I think we learned about visions in third grade, maybe first grade.

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54 minutes ago, Cletus said:

I see you ignored another part of my post concerning new testament saints.  after Pentecost.  Ananias and Sapphira.  who did sin and got the reward of that sin.  this one scripture defies OSAS.  perhaps thats why you didnt respond to that point, but responded to everything around it?  I find it common when someone wants to support OSAS they ignore a whole lot of scripture. 

Believers lose crowns and rewards at the Bema, not salvation Cletus.

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you also posted this verse:

Rom 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

it dont say anything about abandoning the faith, or apostasy.  it dont mention walking away from God... it does say anything else in all creation, which points to external sources, not our own choices.  I actually covered this in a previous post, one with a long list of scriptures that i suppose people skipped over because its just to much at one time. 

The term apostasy is only in reference to nonbelievers who had the knowledge of Christ but hadn't received the free gift. Read 2 Pet 2. The 17 things in Rom 8 cover all basis including future, demons etc etc etc.......

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I am also inclined to point out that you posted 1 john 3:9... just three verses before that it says this:

1Jn 3:6  Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.notice the words whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not?

Pay attention now, don't fall asleep........

1 Jhn 3:6 No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him.

Jhn 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

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It also says in that passage:

1Jn 3:7  Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.so not only do we have an example of abiding but we also have an example of doing, which was a theme mentioned several times previously.  you see it says whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not... the polar opposite is also true then for those who abideth not in Him. 

Right, we produce fruits of righteousness not to save ourselves but rather because we believe on Him who keeps us saved. Godly righteousness, not self righteousness

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the gift of God is eternal life, and the bible tells us all about how to live and what happens if you dont.   eternal life is for the living... or how we live.  we are known by our fruits. 

Rev 17:14  These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Luk 8:13  They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Eternal life is for those who believe and confess, Rom 10:9. In regards to Luke 8:13, Matthew and Mark use the words "trouble and persecution" and Paul says neither trouble or persecution can separate us from God.

Again, Luke is referring to those who have the knowledge of Christ but not the free gift.

Matt 13:21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Mark 4:17 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

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Joh 15:2  Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:

Joh 15:6  If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Joh 15:7  If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Joh 15:9  As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Joh 15:10  If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Joh 15:11  These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

Joh 15:14  Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Most of the words above i made larger text are conditional, even in the greek.  when you flip the coin over it paints a much different picture. 

what Jesus is saying above is not in any way shape fashion or form OSAS.  Is conditional. 

Why are you using allegories to discredit the blood of Christ?

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12 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

If one is redeemed, they have been Redeemed. One cannot become UN-redeemed.

JOHN.15:1-8 (NKJV) The True Vine

1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you,you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

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JOHN.14:21-24 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

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12 hours ago, Montana Marv said:
12 hours ago, Butero said:

The Prodigal son was saved, as God was his Father.  He went back into sin and became dead and lost, unsaved.  Later on, he returned to the Father and was found and "alive again."  It is possible to be saved and lose salvation and be restored.  

I agree with you completely that God knows our beginning from our ending, so those who were created vessels of honor will not die lost.  They may go through times where they backslide, but they will ultimately return like the prodigal son did.  On the other side of the coin, if they are created vessels of dishonor, they may get saved, but they won't endure.  They will ultimately backslide and die lost.  

The Prodigal son, was always his Son.  This never changed. 

The Parable of the Lost Son or Prodigal Son at LUKE.15:11-32 is actually about the relationship between God the Father and the Law-breaking Gentiles(= Prodigal Son) versus the Law-keeping Jews(= Loyal Son).

Formerly Law-breaking or prodigal Gentiles who came back to God as new Gentile Christians were like the Prodigal Son being welcomed back by his rich father. The other jealous but Loyal Son was symbolic of the Law-keeping Jews who remained with God the Father and became new Jewish Christians.

The Parable of the Wedding Feast at MATTHEW.22:1 also has the same symbolism about Jews vs Gentiles.

So, the Parable of the Lost Son is not related to OSAS or NOSAS.

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12 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

1 Thess 1:5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake.

1 Thess 2:3-5 For the appeal we make does not spring from error or impure motives, nor are we trying to trick you. 4On the contrary, we speak as those approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please people but God, who tests our hearts. 5You know we never used flattery, nor did we put on a mask to cover up greed—God is our witness.

It is quite common knowledge that Christians are not saved from hell by the good works of the Law but solely by faith in Jesus Christ. But if Christians who, for whatever reason, go and do evil works of unrighteousness or lawlessness unrepentantly, will they be still saved or still "once saved always saved".?

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1 minute ago, discipler777 said:

It is quite common knowledge that Christians are not saved from hell by the good works of the Law but solely by faith in Jesus Christ. But if Christians who, for whatever reason, go and do evil works of unrighteousness or lawlessness unrepentantly, will they be still saved or still "once saved always saved".?

There once was a man who once believed that because he was once saved he was always saved but once he stopped being faithful to His Saviour it became apparent that his claim to salvation was false.

2Ti 2:12-13
(12)  If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
(13)  If we believe not, yet he abides faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Tit 1:15-16
(15)  Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
(16)  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Heb 10:22-23
(22)  Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
(23)  Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

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33 minutes ago, discipler777 said:

It is quite common knowledge that Christians are not saved from hell by the good works of the Law but solely by faith in Jesus Christ. But if Christians who, for whatever reason, go and do evil works of unrighteousness or lawlessness unrepentantly, will they be still saved or still "once saved always saved".?

Wise Believers will understand the point that Luther is trying to instill in this letter to a friend of his. The unwise will have hissy fits.

If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong [or sin boldly], but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite the sinner.

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6 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:
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what it dont talk about is that returning to sin is not and has nothing to do with any man plucking.

well, that's the thing. the accuser of the brethren says they return to sin, but scripture says differently...

1 Jhn 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

1JOHN.3:9 does not apply to OSASers because they believe they may go and sin some more or sin the same sin repeatedly or willfully sin unrepentantly and yet they will still be "Once Saved Always Saved" by faith/grace. That's the self-contradiction and self-deception of OSAS. 

Faith/grace in Jesus Christ does not permit the saved to go and keep on sinning or doing evil like above but the OSASers believe they may do so and some of them do do so = they do not really believe in Jesus Christ/God and His sayings/commandments/Law/Word fully. Likely, they just want to escape the horrors of hell by believing in Jesus Christ and the Cross but thereafter they do not want to be troubled by His rules/commandments/Law/Word that go against the desires and passions of their flesh.

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Chief among the multiple things that the Judaizing/Legalistic / NOSAS do not understand is this.....we who do not worry about our performance wind up having a better one than THEY do.....They think we are all out ravaging and plundering to our heart’s delight,  because we can “ get away with it”. It’s a kindergarten view of Christianity that just can’t imagine somebody might be granted total freedom and not take advantage of it. It’s kinda like a bird that has been locked up in a cage and is turned loose and once it has experienced cats, mean kids with B.B. GUNS etc, it decides the cage had been for his own good all along and sees the owner of the bird cage restricted him because of love for him.OSAS Believers all have one thing in common— they had a heart operation that changed their wants.I do what I want to do every second of every day—- I want to obey the One who created me and knows what is best for me and gave his life that I may rest in the freedom He payed the price for.If you have not had the heart transplant, stay away from OSAS.Here are the five stages of the heart transplant—Legalists should read and weep————- 

The first stage is the awareness of the horror of being eternally lost.

The second stage is the attempt to stop sinning to remove guilt.  The person tries to save himself any way he can, and comes to the futile realization that he cannot save himself.

The third stage is the realization that the seeker cannot save himself that only God can save him from his sin.

The fourth stage is the conviction that God is just in His judgment.  God is just in his condemnation of sin and the penalty of his sin.  The seeker comes to the place where he realizes that God does not have to save him and finds himself utterly at the mercy of God.

The fifth stage when the seeker becomes to have an affection for God and the Holy Spirit pours out upon the seeker the gift of salvation and fills his heart with the joy of knowing the seeker is truly saved.  Saving faith will fill a person so deeply that His and life are forever changed.  The new believer is so filled with love, that the believer can't wait to be in the arms of His savior.  And its this love that permeates his being and has a love that passes human understanding, even love that has the ability to love his enemies.

 

Edited by Blood Bought 1953
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2 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:
2 hours ago, discipler777 said:

It is quite common knowledge that Christians are not saved from hell by the good works of the Law but solely by faith in Jesus Christ. But if Christians who, for whatever reason, go and do evil works of unrighteousness or lawlessness unrepentantly, will they be still saved or still "once saved always saved".?

Wise Believers will understand the point that Luther is trying to instill in this letter to a friend of his. The unwise will have hissy fits.

If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong [or sin boldly], but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite the sinner.

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Fyi, Martin Luther really went on to persecute and murder/martyr the Anabaptists. .......

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 Even Martin Luther, who is credited with ushering in the Reformation, urged the execution of all Anabaptists as heretics.

Such persecution helped drive the early Anabaptists -- the spiritual ancestors of today's Mennonites, Amish and Hutterites -- into isolation, suspicious of the rest of the world.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2004/06/19/atonement-for-2-centuries-of-persecution/7d724d0f-5e13-4c2c-b1f1-880f6e10f120/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.31fec4f51b3b

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Fyi, Martin Luther enjoyed drinking alcohol/wine/beer and partying or revelries after successfully splitting from the Roman Catholic Church. .......

.

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Accordingly if the devil should say, ‘Do not drink,’ you should reply to him, ‘On this very account, because you forbid it, I shall drink, and what is more, I shall drink a generous amount. Thus one must always do the opposite of that which Satan prohibits. What do you think is my reason for drinking wine undiluted, talking freely, and eating more often, if it is not to torment and vex the devil who made up his mind to torment and vex me.

~ Martin Luther

https://itodyaso.wordpress.com/2011/09/18/martin-luther-on-alcohol/

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#1: In the most famous of all Luther Quotes, he gives the credit for the Reformation to the Wittenberg Beer: 

In short, I will preach it, teach it, write it, but I will constrain no man by force, for faith must come freely without compulsion. Take myself as an example. I opposed indulgences and all the papists, but never with force. I simply taught, preached, and wrote God’s Word; otherwise I did nothing. And while I slept [cf. Mark 4:26–29], or drank Wittenberg beer with my friends Philip and Amsdorf,6 the Word so greatly weakened the papacy that no prince or emperor ever inflicted such losses upon it. I did nothing; the Word did everything. (LW 51:71)

 

https://wolfmueller.co/beer/ - Martin Luther’s Top Five “Beer” Quotations - Posted on April 11, 2018 by Bryan Wolfmueller

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GALATIANS.5:19-21 (NKJV) = 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

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Christians should not use Martin Luther as a moral teacher or role model because the Protestant Reformation was mostly a political movement and protest against the powerful political influence of the Papacy over the Holy Roman Empire, eg the German rulers protected Martin Luther from the Roman Catholic Emperor and the Popes. Why.? = because the Popes selling papal indulgences was draining the German economy.

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Edited by discipler777
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