"Unless You Prove Bible Right I Stay Non-Believer"?

[simplejeff]

26 minutes ago, thomas t said:

Hi Jeff,

the moment an atheist comes out as an atheist... they are out from the visible area. So you effectively can't have a debate between atheists and believers in the main sections. Atheists in this board have to either hide their atheism or go underground to find a place where they can post something that a few people may read outside the limelight.

2 hours ago, simplejeff said:

It's not safe for the weak in faith or for seekers or for little children,

yeah, we had that. If there would be more believing posters who know how to respond without resorting to personal attacks...

The forum is not restricted to believing posters,  nor to posting only the truth (for believers)(they can post almost anything too),  so the forum has many more unfaithful, than faithful, naturally.  Thus the posts are not leading to Salvation in Christ Jesus for the readers, visitors or members.   The "believing posters who know how to respond without resorting to personal attacks ..."  doesn't affect most of the forum because most posters will resort to subterfuge,  sneaky attacks,  outright false teachings and false doctrines ,  and so forth without restriction -  thus it cannot be made "safe" for the weak in faith or for seekers or for little children... (most all the internet is not and cannot or will not ever be "safe"....

 

 

[Nadjeschda]

In a 50 percent situation it would be immoral to not honor god. Because if you do not and he exist, you insult him. If he does not exist nothing bad happens if you just believe in him wrongly. Believe is for me about believing in the good where you can not see it yet; in a good creation, in your enemies soul. If you want to stretch your imagination in this way this already makes you a good person.

[Nadjeschda]

Thomas is right by the way. I was an atheist and I can tell you that many atheist secretly hope a bit that someone can actually defeat their disbelief. However when someone is personally attacked his ability to take up new information is automatically reduced.

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, thomas t said:

Hi Steven

the verse please (please look also at my response to Abdicate). If you cite the verse that says "Unbelievers love their sin and don't want to change!" everything is fine.

If a post is voted up that does have a source, ok. But quite often people just vote up posts when their authors don't bother to back anything up.

---

 

 

 

John 3:19-21
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. KJV

Luke 16:15
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
KJV

Ps 14:1-3
14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. KJV

 

[enoob57]

46 minutes ago, Nadjeschda said:

Thomas is right by the way. I was an atheist and I can tell you that many atheist secretly hope a bit that someone can actually defeat their disbelief. However when someone is personally attacked his ability to take up new information is automatically reduced.

What you and Thomas do not understand there is no such thing as an atheist... according to God they turned from the creation evidence and He (God) let them go.... 

[thomas t]

HI Jeff,

2 hours ago, simplejeff said:

If this verse is still not revealed in this thread, and if it is still unknown to you,   just ask again,  or look in the Apocalypse for it.

I won't play this game.

If you have this verse, post it, if you don't, don't pretend you would.

2 hours ago, simplejeff said:

The forum is not restricted to believing posters, 

yes it is Jeff, as I said, the moment you say you're an atheist, you're out.

2 hours ago, simplejeff said:

The "believing posters who know how to respond without resorting to personal attacks ..."  doesn't affect most of the forum

personal attacks are the worst, in my opinion. Jesus was crystal clear we shouldn't do that.

---

Hi Steven,

32 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

What you and Thomas do not understand

none of your 3 verses says atheists don't want to change.

 

Thomas

 

 

[simplejeff]

50 minutes ago, thomas t said:

I won't play this game.

If you have this verse, post it, if you don't, don't pretend you would. 

3 hours ago, simplejeff said:

The forum is not restricted to believing posters, 

yes it is Jeff, as I said, the moment you say you're an atheist, you're out. 

3 hours ago, simplejeff said:

The "believing posters who know how to respond without resorting to personal attacks ..."  doesn't affect most of the forum

personal attacks are the worst, in my opinion. Jesus was crystal clear we shouldn't do that. 

Working backwards (from bottom quote to the top)

So ?  It still does not affect most of the forum.

No it isn't  - if you say you're a Christian, you're in.  Even if you're not.  Or even if you're one of those called 'Christian' by designation,  but not by Yahuweh.

You've been playing a game,  I don't know what to call it. It's dangerous, and it doesn't look good.(from your posts since you joined)

I don't pretend.

The verse is actually not very rare to know - I just did not know if someone else already posted it....

"REVELATION 9:20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, [a]did not repent even then of the works of their hands, so as to cease worshiping and paying homage to the demons and the idols of gold and of silver and of bronze and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk; 21 and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries (drugs, intoxications) nor of their [sexual] immorality nor of their thefts.

Footnotes:

Revelation 9:20 The wickedness of idolatry is so deep and deceptive that idolaters refuse to repent in spite of the overwhelming evidence of God’s displeasure with them (Ps 115:8; 135:18)."

===============

Other similar related:

 Jeremiah 44:15-17 International Standard Version (ISV)
The Refugees Refuse to Repent

15 Then all the men who knew that their wives were offering sacrifices to other gods and all the women who were standing by—a large group, including all the people who were living in the land of Egypt in Pathros—answered Jeremiah: 16 “As for the message that you reported to us in the name of the Lord, we won’t listen to you! 17 Rather, we will keep doing everything that we said we would[a] by offering sacrifices to the Queen of Heaven and by pouring out liquid offerings to her just as we, our ancestors, our kings, and our leaders did in the cities of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem. Then we had plenty of bread, things went well for us, and we didn’t experience disaster.

================

Jeremiah 8:5 - Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Jeremiah 8%3A5
“Why then has this people of Jerusalem Turned away with a perpetual turning away [from Me]? They hold tightly to deceit (idolatry); They refuse to repent and ...

[thomas t]

Hi Jeff,

11 hours ago, simplejeff said:

You've been playing a game, 

no.

11 hours ago, simplejeff said:

(from your posts since you joined)

joined three years before you did.

Actually you're adressing the entirety of my posts since the date of my sign-up. So this is getting personal, in my opinion. Please stay on the subject level, thank you.

Getting personal was the biggest problem that we saw when atheists were there (in the visible sections). The posters from the Christian side didn't only insult themselves, but atheist posters were their victims, too. That was the biggest problem. I hope it will go away.

 

Ah the verse. Oh you provided even two of them. Jeremiah 44:15-17 is about a group of self-declared believers in certain gods that didn't want to change their religion. This is not atheism. Same applies to Jeremiah 8:5. Furthermore, if one group some 2600 years ago didn't want to repent - doesn't mean that every nonbeliever in the world today doesn't want to change, either. This kind of generelization makes me wonder if you take this topic seriously.

Rev 9:20 lies in the future, in my opinion.

It is at a time when many people will have been fast tracked into heaven in Rev 7:9, already. Bible says it is " a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

You can't rule out that the people your verse is speaking of... actually saw that great multitude getting jealous. Then they might have tried to take revenge by not repenting.

In my opinion, Rev 9:20 is under circumstances that are different from today so that you can't necessarily assign its truth to today also.

And Jeff, this...

11 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Footnotes:

Revelation 9:20 The wickedness of idolatry is so deep and deceptive that idolaters refuse to repent in spite of the overwhelming evidence of God’s displeasure with them (Ps 115:8; 135:18)."

... is not Bible! It's an interpretation of a Bible verse from someone. Doesn't prove anything.

Regards,

Thomas

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by thomas t
added 1 sentence

[Nadjeschda]

I find Thomas so fare did better than me (talking of me playing with the thought that Dawkins is a psychopath...) AND others in understanding the principles of non-violence and non-blaming of Jesus. If there is a conflict between what the older parts of the Bible says and what Jesus says than Jesus should always have the last say. Especially one should not be judgmental about the motives why someone is interested in the Christian believe ("He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her .")

I have the very very real problem to convince my boyfriend to re-investigate Christian believe too. I am pretty sure that we both can only be convinced for the long run if we assume that the story of Christ is true (because I can't believe that a human can be so wise and because there is a consistency betweeen the command to love others and to love god) while the rest of the bible is more of a historic accounts mixed with allegories or at least something that I do not need to understand at this point to connect to Christ. I hence see the word by word interpretation that claims that the bible has to be true in total as a bit of dangerous for it's great power to turn seekers away before their journey even started.

God can only talk in allegories to us because frankly we are to stupid to understand him fully - that is my firm believe. As an analogy: When a human would try to explain a cat a higher state of beeing (for example becoming a human) than he would as well start with some kind of allegory too in the cat's language ("it's great like beeing able to bath in the blood of a hundred freshly killed mice"). The problem here is that the person the allegory is addressed to is violent by nature so a violent language has to some degree to be used to talk to that imperfect beeing. This is true to some degree for humans too. If we would be better beeings the message and the stories of the bible would be less violent.

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Nadjeschda

[Nadjeschda]

1 hour ago, thomas t said:

Ah the verse. Oh you provided even two of them. Jeremiah 44:15-17 is about a group of self-declared believers in certain gods that didn't want to change their religion. This is not atheism. Same applies to Jeremiah 8:5. Furthermore, if one group some 2600 years ago didn't want to repent - doesn't mean that every nonbeliever in the world today doesn't want to change, either. This kind of generelization makes me wonder if you take this topic seriously.

 

Ah, that is interesting by it's won right. They turn to evil gods and maybe even sacrifice to them because they want to have something in return? That would be more evil than todays forms of atheism. I do not want to overdo it because if you think atheism through to it's end it becomes man-hating or at least devaluative of the human mind. But if you do stay in a more naive state of atheism of pure anger about suffering this might be frowned lesss on by god.