God's sovereign choice

[Guest Butero]

2 minutes ago, George said:

Since we're not talking about OSAS ... why do you bring this up?   The very PREMISE of who God is ... His Holiness, His Righteousness, His Love -- all his attributes which are PERFECT -- suddenly gets thrown out the window when you BELIEVE that GOD CREATED INIQUITY!   

And from this flawed starting point ... warps your entire theological understanding ... I continue to press you on this point, because it's BASIC -- elementary almost ... you want to get to the deeper things of God ... it must begin from a proper understanding of WHO GOD IS!  Otherwise ... it's all skewed ... 

If I build a house on a SLANTED foundation ... the house will be SLANTED!  This very basic foundational point ... has caused a slanted view of the rest of your understandings ... this is why it's important!

That is how this all began.  It is all tied in together.  God creates everyone knowing all they will ever do, good or bad.   He knows who will be saved and who will be lost.  Each person's actions directly effect others, so all details must work according to plan, not just because of little incidental things, but to bring about Bible prophecy.  All the scriptures dealing with the elect are based on that idea.  God created and chose who he would reveal his Son to, and knew who would continue and who would fall away.  He created Judas Iscariot to be the betrayer of the Lord.  You can't get much more evil than that, so why is it such a stretch to say he created Lucifer to be his adversary?  It all ties in together.  

[Guest Butero]

5 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

I didnt realise you believe in predestination and Calvinism.

I don't believe in Calvinism, as I reject many of his teachings.  I just believe in predestination and election, not the way Calvin teaches it.

[George]

1 minute ago, Butero said:

It all ties in together.

It's all skewed together from a wrong premise. God did NOT CHOOSE to CREATE JUDAS to betray the Lord.  It's a FLAWED premise from the beginning ... 

The proper understanding is ... that EVERYONE is written in the Lamb's book of life ... and then ... in their FREE WILL CHOICE ... their decisions cause their names to be blotted out!

Because you believe that GOD CREATED EVIL ... CREATED INIQUITY ... it's flawed from the very beginning -- thus affects your understanding of the very character of God.

[George]

This is what I wrote previously on another thread but it applies here.

So in order to understand difficult passages in Revelation … for example in Revelation 3:5 where it says “and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.” – we really need to understand the entirety of the Bible to fully comprehend what's going on.

The Bible discusses many different books throughout the Bible -- not just Revelation.  For example, we read in Exodus.

Exo 32:11  But Moses implored the LORD his God and said, “O LORD, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 
Exo 32:12  Why should the Egyptians say, ‘With evil intent did he bring them out, to kill them in the mountains and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from your burning anger and relent from this disaster against your people. 

... Exo 32:31  So Moses returned to the LORD and said, “Alas, this people has sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods of gold. 
Exo 32:32  But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.” 
Exo 32:33  But the LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book."

Notice here, that it appears that “everyone is written in the book … and then they are blotted out.”

Again in Deuteronomy,

Deu 29:20 The LORD will not be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and his jealousy will smoke against that man, and the curses written in this book will settle upon him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.

If you think of it this way ... how could they be blotted out ... if they were never written in ... unless perhaps ... they were written in from the beginning.

[George]

In Psalms, David writes this ...

Psa 56:8 You have kept count of my tossings; put my tears in your bottle. Are they not in your book?

Again David writes this ...

Psa 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

But this is really the passage I want to focus on – notice what David wrote in Psalm 69:28 --

Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living; let them not be enrolled among the righteous.

I want to focus on this particular PSALM as this gives us an understanding of the passages in Revelation … where Yeshua (Jesus) mentions those “blotted out of the Lamb's book” of life.

You will notice that Psalm 69 is a Messianic passage as many of the verses used in this Psalm are attributed to Yeshua (Jesus).

For example, in Psalm 69:9 For zeal for your house has consumed me, and the reproaches of those who reproach you have fallen on me.

This verse is quoted in John 2 – John 2:15 Then He made a whip of cords and drove them all out of the Temple, both the sheep and oxen. He dumped out the coins of the moneychangers and overturned their tables. 

Joh 2:16 To those selling doves, He said, “Get these things out of here! Stop making My Father’s house a marketplace!”

Joh 2:17 His disciples remembered that it is written, “Zeal for your House will consume Me!”

In Psalm 69:21 They gave me poison for food, and for my thirst they gave me sour wine to drink.

And you read the scenario in John 19:28-30 After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the Scripture), “I thirst.”

Joh 19:29 A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Now when you read Acts 1:20, we read …

Acts 1:20

“For it is written in the Book of Psalms, “‘May his camp become desolate, and let there be no one to dwell in it’; and “‘Let another take his office.’

This is connected to Psalm 69:25,

Psalm 69:25 May their camp be a desolation; let no one dwell in their tents.

So we now know that this is connected to Judas – as the Apostles chose Matthias to replace Judas!

I want you to THINK about this … when Jesus said this,

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 

Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, and drive out demons in Your name, and perform many miracles in Your name?’

Mat 7:23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Get away from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’”

In my heart of hearts, I believe that Yeshua (Jesus) was looking DIRECTLY at Judas Iscariot as he said these words. If you think about the situation in the Upper Room, just before Jesus died … they asked amongst themselves – is it I Lord? Now if Judas HAD NEVER cast out demons, or perform miracles … wouldn't all the apostles pointed at Judas saying … Judas doesn't do any of the miracles we've have seen – He must be the traitor! No, they didn't point to Judas because HE APPEARED TO BE ONE OF THEM!

So notice something else – casting out demons, performing miracles in His name – DOES NOT SAVE YOU!You cannot WORK into the KINGDOM!

[George]

This is vital to understanding how to find rest … more on this later. But as you study the Scriptures are clear as it says in 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they were of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out so that it might be revealed that they were not all of us.

So let us return to Psalm 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the Book of Life, and not be written with the righteous.

So it appears to be in the Old Testament as we render the understanding of whom is written in the books … everyone is written in … and latter blotted out! Notice that David wrote of Judas … as though his name was written in the book of life … almost foreshadowing that “everyone” even the worst of God's enemies are written in … however, their deeds showed that they were NOT TRULY of God – and thus blotted out!

I realize that this is DEBATABLE, and I'm am in no way dogmatic about this position, however, I find it interesting the terminology that both Moses and David use as they write about the “blotting out of the names” in the book – about blotting people whom if God foreknew would be lost – why write them in to begin with?

Not as if they could “lose” their salvation, but rather their deeds proved that they were NEVER part of the Kingdom! Thus, we have the understanding that God LOVES EVERYONE and desires EVERYONE to be saved … everyone was written in the book of life … however, we now see that they denied His salvation … and thus were blotted out …

So in Hebraic thought, you were written in God's book before the foundation of the world -- which is in line with what the New Testament wrote.

[Guest Butero]

1 minute ago, maryjayne said:

God has used murders, adulterers, prostitutes and the like to do His will. That doe not mean He Himself has any part in their evil choices. It means He uses all things (even evil things) for His Purpose and Good.

God has not ceased to have power of the fallen angels (including satan), He has not lost control of them. He chooses to stand back, within limits, and allow them free will. That does not equate to permission, or condoning their choices. 

He told this spirit to lie. 

Anyway, I could continue on with this, but I see no value in it.  As far as Calvinism goes, one major difference between me and your typical follower of Calvin is that they believe that if a person simply has a heart towards God, that proves they are the elect, and they reject good works.  I believe that God alone knows who is the elect based on their decision to accept Christ and continue following him, thus the admonition to make your calling and election sure.  I have never been a follower of Calvin.  I am just familiar with the fact everyone relates predestination to him.  

[George]

So my line of reasoning is in line with God's character -- his Goodness, His Love, His Righteousness!

I truly believe that God wrote EVERYONE's NAME in the BOOK OF LIFE from the beginning, in line with His very character and their free-will choices determine whether or not they are BLOTTED OUT!

My initial position comes from a POSITION that God is PURE, HOLY and RIGHTEOUS!

@Butero Your position begins with the understanding that God CREATED iniquity, and thus EVERY evil -- is attributable to God -- seriously -- this is what you are advocating.  You are going to STAND BEFORE GOD -- with this understanding?  Seriously?  This is why ... from the beginning MISUNDERSTANDING of who God is ... has warped the rest of your theological foundations.

[Guest Butero]

When I get a chance, I will look further into what you are saying about the book of life.  That sounds backwards from what most teach, and many say there are two books, one containing all people, and one, only those who are saved, but I haven't really considered it the way you are saying.  Lord willing, I will take a closer look.  

[Guest Butero]

6 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

the spirit offered to lie, and God gave him permission.

No matter how you say it, God told the spirit to go and lie.  It was God looking for anyone to come up with a way to deceive King Ahab.