Faith

[UnprofitableServantJames]

On 1/7/2019 at 11:25 PM, Billiards Ball said:

Can we start with this understanding?

* The Hebrew Bible says nearly 7,000 times some variant of "This is the Word of the LORD"

* The NT claims inspiration on a very regular basis, and also claims to be little more than commentary on the OT (regarding all its major and minor doctrines)

* No apocrypha or other works bear God's divine stamp with the tetragrammaton name

Thanks!

I think there is some confusion. The OT does say that 'these are the words of the Lord", but it never says that the "book" is the word of God. IT just contains some of God's words. There is a difference between the two.

The NT is clear that JESUS is the Word of God. He is the embodiment of both the old and new testament. If we follow him, then we are following both the old and the new (John 5:39-40).

In peace

[Billiards Ball]

1 hour ago, UnprofitableServantJames said:

I think there is some confusion. The OT does say that 'these are the words of the Lord", but it never says that the "book" is the word of God. IT just contains some of God's words. There is a difference between the two.

The NT is clear that JESUS is the Word of God. He is the embodiment of both the old and new testament. If we follow him, then we are following both the old and the new (John 5:39-40).

In peace

When a collection of books (the 39) says in it nearly 7,000 times it is the Word of YHVH, uniquely in all literature...

...John 5 is not saying "Don't study the OT scriptures diligently." Peter affirms in his letters that studying the OT to learn about Jesus and doctrine is more valuable than his eyewitness experience of Jesus. Numerous NT passages emphasize OT study--in fact, over 90% of NT doctrine IS OT doctrine. The OT also is 35% prophecy, with important information for now and for the end times.

Thank you.

[UnprofitableServantJames]

19 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

When a collection of books (the 39) says in it nearly 7,000 times it is the Word of YHVH, uniquely in all literature...

...John 5 is not saying "Don't study the OT scriptures diligently." Peter affirms in his letters that studying the OT to learn about Jesus and doctrine is more valuable than his eyewitness experience of Jesus. Numerous NT passages emphasize OT study--in fact, over 90% of NT doctrine IS OT doctrine. The OT also is 35% prophecy, with important information for now and for the end times.

Thank you.

Where does the OT say that those 39 books are the Word of God?

What is John 5 saying? Jesus seems to be saying that the Pharisees were doing what you are suggesting we do (i.e., study the scriptures to find eternal life). You are doing this without coming to Jesus first; the author and finisher of our faith.

The 10% of doctrine that is found in the NT, are most, if not all, found from Jesus and His words. Jesus came to fulfill the law, so if we are following Jesus, then we don't need the law. Following Jesus is following the law in all it's entirety, along with what the law misses. Read Matthew 5 for these references.

I do question how sincere your "thank you" is in your sign off...

In peace

[Billiards Ball]

6 hours ago, UnprofitableServantJames said:

Where does the OT say that those 39 books are the Word of God?

What is John 5 saying? Jesus seems to be saying that the Pharisees were doing what you are suggesting we do (i.e., study the scriptures to find eternal life). You are doing this without coming to Jesus first; the author and finisher of our faith.

The 10% of doctrine that is found in the NT, are most, if not all, found from Jesus and His words. Jesus came to fulfill the law, so if we are following Jesus, then we don't need the law. Following Jesus is following the law in all it's entirety, along with what the law misses. Read Matthew 5 for these references.

I do question how sincere your "thank you" is in your sign off...

In peace

As a brother, the thank you is sincere. The Lord reminds us to be reconciled with a brother before offering on His altar(s), yes? Let us discuss powerfully and fully, let us do the wonderful thing we do with God's Word in each other's lives, in love, in truth.

We may find eternal life studying either testament, yes. I'm certain many found eternal life before there was an NT or even an OT. I think John 5 is saying, "Search all you like, but you'll find me in the OT, not eternal life by being a Pharisee!"

All Christian sects, some cults, even Islam, understand there are Hebrew scriptures and Greek scriptures. The NT says all scripture (regardless of testament) is inspired by God. "Inspired" sounds like "respiration" because the scripture is God-breathed. Jesus is the eternal Word of God. Where we can soak in this Word? Jesus is the logos or mind of God. How do we commune with this mind? The scriptures, OT and NT.

I hear what you're saying, and I respect your stance, "Follow Jesus, and you've got it!" I follow Jesus in several ways, but by far and large, by studying and learning from and memorizing and obeying both testaments. Like most believers, I'm in the NT more and memorize that more that the OT at most times.

Understand that like you, I never advocate keeping the OT or even NT law to be saved. The saving gospel is, "Per prophecy, Jesus Christ suffered, died and rose, and eyewitness saw Him rise!" To be saved is a two-word possibility, "Trust Jesus."

Put another way, loving Jesus and loving people IS all the Law, but no person loves God and man 24/7/365 except Jesus. I cannot go to Heaven, even now as a believing, law-abiding Christian, because I still sometimes disobey my conscience. If I hurt even your feelings in Heaven, it's not Heaven, so I have to be CHANGED. When I meet Jesus in person, He will transform me to never sin against conscience. I will hear His voice but also "walk it out" 100% of the time. The formal term for believing law keeping gets you to Heaven is "legalism". Legalism isn't "Mom, why do I have to be home at 10 PM," it's confusing the all-saving cross of Christ for the not-all-obedience we have when keeping law from either testament.

Also understand that if we agree on what John 5 says, it's saying "A Pharisee is saved trusting Me, Jesus, not being a Pharisee!" Pharisees, modern and ancient, are attempting salvation by law-keeping.

I remain fully convinced that the 66 alone are the Word of God. I have many reasons for believing so, logical, scriptural, and otherwise.

Your question, "Where does it say the OT is the Word of God?" can also be applied to the NT, "Where does it say the NT is the Word of God?" The answers to both our questions are found, of course, in both testaments.

Thank you--thank you for reading what I've written, taking a moment to pray it out, asking God to discard what I've said that is false, to believe what I've said that is true, to ask what verses come to mind as you ponder the issues...

...One of the issues is that BOTH testaments say, "Trust God, and you've got it!"

I'm open to any response you want to share.

[Billiards Ball]

19 hours ago, eileenhat said:

My personal experience with observing what 'faith' means is keeping our faith in God during times of adversity.  Adversity can take many turns.  For some, it is the fear of loss of revenue, I've observed personally.

During our worse times, fears arise and those are the times we need to go to God in prayer with our 'hat in hand'.  I have personally observed people losing their faith in God over material wealth (problems), for example and it was heart wrenching to see them lose faith (and their salvation) as they never expected to ever have to deal with funding issues and they choose to turned away God in order to solve their issues their way (rather than allow God to show them a way).

I think back scripturally to the man and wife God struck down because they hid their wealth from the early Christian community the disciples were forging (acts 5:1-11).  It remains an issue even today, but instead of actually dying physically, we die spiritually instead.

There are a number of bible verses about this topic (happy to list scripture upon request), but I brought it up now because I had an encounter with this issue recently (in someone I knew).  I realized that they had not faced adversity at this level before (ie. money perceived problems) and it overtook them.  

I understand that God does not always take away salvation when we turn from him.  There is always that question as 'how far can we go' into sinful ways, before we lose our way.  I guess I am beginning to understand 'how far' should not be our question, but 'how fast can I turn back to God when I do go astray' instead.

There is this secondary issue too (regarding lost of salvation).  But perhaps for another day.

Still sad about.

If John 3:16's trust is a one-time act, salvation is permanent upon acceptance. In the Greek as I understand it is "If anyone trusts me now while hearing/reading this or trusted me in the past or will trust me in the future during their lifetime, they have eternal life." God, who does not lie, gave us this fine promise.

We also have Romans that says two verses, "God's gifts are irrevocable" and "Salvation is a gift." Put together, "Salvation is an irrevocable gift." All gifts including spiritual gifts and salvation are permanent upon acceptance/receipt.

We also have Ephesians 1, that says, "The Spirit is a deposit on salvation." Christians in Hell would bring the Spirit to suffer in Hell, which is impossible.

We also have being adopted as God's children. Satan would need to resurrect my crucified, old, dead man, and make me Satan's child again to be lost. IMPOSSIBLE!

[UnprofitableServantJames]

On 1/17/2019 at 11:22 PM, Billiards Ball said:

As a brother, the thank you is sincere. The Lord reminds us to be reconciled with a brother before offering on His altar(s), yes? Let us discuss powerfully and fully, let us do the wonderful thing we do with God's Word in each other's lives, in love, in truth.

We may find eternal life studying either testament, yes. I'm certain many found eternal life before there was an NT or even an OT. I think John 5 is saying, "Search all you like, but you'll find me in the OT, not eternal life by being a Pharisee!"

All Christian sects, some cults, even Islam, understand there are Hebrew scriptures and Greek scriptures. The NT says all scripture (regardless of testament) is inspired by God. "Inspired" sounds like "respiration" because the scripture is God-breathed. Jesus is the eternal Word of God. Where we can soak in this Word? Jesus is the logos or mind of God. How do we commune with this mind? The scriptures, OT and NT.

I hear what you're saying, and I respect your stance, "Follow Jesus, and you've got it!" I follow Jesus in several ways, but by far and large, by studying and learning from and memorizing and obeying both testaments. Like most believers, I'm in the NT more and memorize that more that the OT at most times.

Understand that like you, I never advocate keeping the OT or even NT law to be saved. The saving gospel is, "Per prophecy, Jesus Christ suffered, died and rose, and eyewitness saw Him rise!" To be saved is a two-word possibility, "Trust Jesus."

Put another way, loving Jesus and loving people IS all the Law, but no person loves God and man 24/7/365 except Jesus. I cannot go to Heaven, even now as a believing, law-abiding Christian, because I still sometimes disobey my conscience. If I hurt even your feelings in Heaven, it's not Heaven, so I have to be CHANGED. When I meet Jesus in person, He will transform me to never sin against conscience. I will hear His voice but also "walk it out" 100% of the time. The formal term for believing law keeping gets you to Heaven is "legalism". Legalism isn't "Mom, why do I have to be home at 10 PM," it's confusing the all-saving cross of Christ for the not-all-obedience we have when keeping law from either testament.

Also understand that if we agree on what John 5 says, it's saying "A Pharisee is saved trusting Me, Jesus, not being a Pharisee!" Pharisees, modern and ancient, are attempting salvation by law-keeping.

I remain fully convinced that the 66 alone are the Word of God. I have many reasons for believing so, logical, scriptural, and otherwise.

Your question, "Where does it say the OT is the Word of God?" can also be applied to the NT, "Where does it say the NT is the Word of God?" The answers to both our questions are found, of course, in both testaments.

Thank you--thank you for reading what I've written, taking a moment to pray it out, asking God to discard what I've said that is false, to believe what I've said that is true, to ask what verses come to mind as you ponder the issues...

...One of the issues is that BOTH testaments say, "Trust God, and you've got it!"

I'm open to any response you want to share.

Thanks for your response!

Firstly, let me make clear that I wasn't saying the NT is the Word of God. I am saying JEsus is the Word of God. Nothing more; nothing less.

Secondly, I can appreciate the thought about not being saved through our works, but, I find a fundamental issues with those that subscribe to this belief system. As Jesus said, we must judge a tree by it's fruit. Through me doing this, I've found this understanding of salvation to be flawed.

The fruit of such people are rarely lined up with what I read a spirit filled person as being. Rather, I find these people as being the Pharisees that you are describing!

Let me be clear. I notice this through listening to Jesus' advice on judging the tree of people. In order for me not to be misled. I hope you can appreciate the need for us to 'test the spirits' of people.

For me, trusting God is trusting the Word of God. Again, the Bible never claims to be the Word of God, but it does say that Jesus is the Word of God. This is fundamental if we are to put the rest of the bible in alignment with the cornerstone (Jesus).

In peace

[UnprofitableServantJames]

On 1/18/2019 at 5:45 AM, eileenhat said:

My personal experience with observing what 'faith' means is keeping our faith in God during times of adversity.  Adversity can take many turns.  For some, it is the fear of loss of revenue, I've observed personally.

During our worse times, fears arise and those are the times we need to go to God in prayer with our 'hat in hand'.  I have personally observed people losing their faith in God over material wealth (problems), for example and it was heart wrenching to see them lose faith (and their salvation) as they never expected to ever have to deal with funding issues and they choose to turned away God in order to solve their issues their way (rather than allow God to show them a way).

I think back scripturally to the man and wife God struck down because they hid their wealth from the early Christian community the disciples were forging (acts 5:1-11).  It remains an issue even today, but instead of actually dying physically, we die spiritually instead.

There are a number of bible verses about this topic (happy to list scripture upon request), but I brought it up now because I had an encounter with this issue recently (in someone I knew).  I realized that they had not faced adversity at this level before (ie. money perceived problems) and it overtook them.  

I understand that God does not always take away salvation when we turn from him.  There is always that question as 'how far can we go' into sinful ways, before we lose our way.  I guess I am beginning to understand 'how far' should not be our question, but 'how fast can I turn back to God when I do go astray' instead.

There is this secondary issue too (regarding lost of salvation).  But perhaps for another day.

Still sad about.

 enjoyed reading your response. I can relate to money being a key factor in people losing faith in God.

I am not sure of the specifics of your encounters, but for me, I've encountered people who put money before God. These type of people don't openly admit to this, but on closer examination, we see where their heart is.

Jesus gave us a way to know where someone's heart is. In Matt 6:21 Jesus says,"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also". It became blatantly clear if someone's heart is directed towards: God or money. By following the 'money trail' and asking the question: Where does the majority of our money goes? The answer to this question shows where our heart is revolving around.

The people I tried to tell this to always say, "it is the love of money" that is the issue, not money itself. They say this, but when I ask where there money goes to see where their heart/love is, they baulk. It is a sad reality that I can relate too...

The topic of losing salvation is another area that seems difficult for people to grasp. From experience, it seems many see questioning one's salvation is the same as not having faith in God. This, however, seems to be different from what scripture says. At least the scriptures that I find in the bible. Like yourself, I can share these scriptures upon request ?

In peace

[Billiards Ball]

On 1/20/2019 at 4:53 AM, UnprofitableServantJames said:

Thanks for your response!

Firstly, let me make clear that I wasn't saying the NT is the Word of God. I am saying JEsus is the Word of God. Nothing more; nothing less.

Secondly, I can appreciate the thought about not being saved through our works, but, I find a fundamental issues with those that subscribe to this belief system. As Jesus said, we must judge a tree by it's fruit. Through me doing this, I've found this understanding of salvation to be flawed.

The fruit of such people are rarely lined up with what I read a spirit filled person as being. Rather, I find these people as being the Pharisees that you are describing!

Let me be clear. I notice this through listening to Jesus' advice on judging the tree of people. In order for me not to be misled. I hope you can appreciate the need for us to 'test the spirits' of people.

For me, trusting God is trusting the Word of God. Again, the Bible never claims to be the Word of God, but it does say that Jesus is the Word of God. This is fundamental if we are to put the rest of the bible in alignment with the cornerstone (Jesus).

In peace

Perhaps do a word search on "backslider" in the scriptures. A backslider is a miserable person with few works who is saved. Much depends on whether it is true that "whoever trusts Jesus" (John 3) is saved.

[UnprofitableServantJames]

17 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

A backslider is a miserable person with few works who is saved.

Where in scripture does it suggest that a backslider is saved? It is really hear to wrap my head around what you are suggesting?

Though I can see levels of backsliding that could hold your point true. But at what point is someone lost?

In peace

[Billiards Ball]

7 hours ago, UnprofitableServantJames said:

Where in scripture does it suggest that a backslider is saved? It is really hear to wrap my head around what you are suggesting?

Though I can see levels of backsliding that could hold your point true. But at what point is someone lost?

In peace

I understand. Let's start with what we both know and affirm:

Hebrews 11 is a great chapter that tells Christians how to live, boldly and not sinfully.

Hebrews 12 is a great chapter that tells Christians they are children of God and get spanked for backsliding.

Hebrew 12 says if a backslider isn't spanked, they're not a child but illegitimate (child of Satan!).

The Beatitudes and countless other scriptures describe God as Father and God as nurturer and supreme parent. Christians are adopted by God. Can He parent them perfectly? Of course. Can Satan take a born again person, resurrect their old man, re-adopt them away from God, etc.? NO! He lacks this power--but he always wants people to think he has more power than he does.

Show me an ex-Christian who loves every minute of their sinful lifestyle and I'll tend to call them out as never saved to begin. I constantly witness to such people, often, atheists trolling websites (or in person, seeking attention). I ask their "testimony" and hear they sought spiritual experiences, pursued a charismatic pastor, followed the people they liked, etc. but NEVER do they say, "Jesus and I had a relationship, then He disappeared from the scene." NEVER. Never do they say, "I sincerely trusted Jesus to be born again," NEVER.

Show me an ex-Christian who indulges their flesh but is miserable, and I'll tend to call them a lost child (parable of the prodigal here).

Remember Hosea also, "Israel, you are backslidden but I AM MARRIED TO YOU." GOD HATES DIVORCE as the scripture encourages us, so the nation of Israel (or the Northern tribes in this case) would NEVER be fully cast away by God. As backsliders, would there be suffering, misery, chastisement, YES. Total loss of salvation? No, see Romans 11:26.