Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[JoeCanada]

On 2/13/2020 at 1:16 PM, Salvation67 said:

Mid trib and post tribe theorys just don't make sense. I can't understand how people can believe our Lord and Savior would allow his His children to be persecuted and killed off in such a manner just because it happened in the OT, the number of people persecuted in the OT were many but in a larger scope, there were few per capita and nowhere near the number that will be persecuted and killed in the tribulation and those who are are those saved after the gathering (rapture) The arguments for mid and post trib just dont jive. Just my two cents on a million dollar topic.

Hi Salvation 67,

"I can't understand how people can believe our Lord and Savior would allow his His children to be persecuted and killed off in such a manner just because it happened in the OT"

If we look in the New Testament, look at what Paul tells us in .....2 Thes 1:4........ " we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. 

This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering"....2 Thes 1: 5

So here we see the reason why we go thru tribulation.....(persecution, affliction, etc).....so that we will be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God!

Why does God allow the majority of His children to suffer persecution, tribulation, affliction....for the past 2000 years? Why does He allow many to be tortured, beaten to death, crucified, beheaded, burned alive, cut in pieces......not just in the past, but today, ongoing as I type? Why? 

Why do you think that God shouldn't allow persecution, tribulation, affliction to a privileged few.....those in the western church....ie: North American Churches? (for example)

Are we better than those brothers and sisters in some 53 nations around the world where they are persecuted for their faith in Christ? Where they are chased out of their homes, businesses. Where they are forced to flee. With nothing but what they can carry....maybe.

We have it WAY too easy!

 

 

[JohnD]

Once we get it right that the 70th Week of Daniel is a 7 year period of TWO

3.5 year tribulations... all the scriptures quoted make sense and no longer appear to contradict:

The one rapture will occur:

PRE great tribulation (Matthew 24:20)

MID 70th week of Daniel (Daniel 12:11-12)

POST believer's tribulation (Revelation 3:10 / Revelation 12:17 / Revelation 13:7-18)

This is NOT historic Mid tribulation eschatology... which teaches one 7 year tribulation.

The believer's tribulation is satan's war on God.

The great tribulation is God's judgment / war on satan...

Christians were judged on the cross. God will never judge us again;

Isaiah 54:9–10 (NASB95)
9 “For this is like the days of Noah to Me, When I swore that the waters of Noah Would not flood the earth again; So I have sworn that I will not be angry with you Nor will I rebuke you.
10 “For the mountains may be removed and the hills may shake, But My lovingkindness will not be removed from you, And My covenant of peace will not be shaken,” Says the Lord who has compassion on you.

Edited February 17, 2020 by JohnD

[Montana Marv]

20 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I think you have the times of the Gentiles misidentified as when "the fullness of the Gentiles be come in".  The times of the Gentiles concerns the trampling of Jerusalem that started with the desolation by Nebuchadnezzar that brought Daniel and his companions to Babylon. 

And so will be in effect during the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th Week.

Luk 21:24 KJV And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Yes this time will end just prior to the Mill.

Dan 1:2 KJV And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure house of his god.

The fullness of the Gentiles speaks of being grafted into God's olive tree,  that which we have been grafted into.

  
Rom 11:23-25 KJV    And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Yes a time in which no one knows its time, but only God the Father.  And do we have an angel flying in midair at this time proclaiming the eternal Gospel.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Comments is redish orange above.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Revelation Man]

On 2/16/2020 at 2:18 PM, Da Puppers said:

The question needs to be asked,  "When does Israel's blindness end? "

Rom 11:25-27 KJV    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness IN  PART is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so ALL ISRAEL shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

1. Does their blindness end when the 70th week begins?

2. Does their blindness end when the covenant is confirmed? 

3. Does their blindness end when the great tribulation begins? 

4. Does their blindness end when the great tribulation ends? 

5. Does their blindness end when the man of sin is revealed? 

6. Does their blindness end when the rapture takes place?

When we read the full context of the Romans 11 passage,  we find that partial blindness is to be replaced by no blindness at all.   But, two questions must be answered. 

A.  What is that blindness? 

B. And how is it to be removed? 

Romans 11 answers both questions in one fell swoop. 

 

[B.].The Deliverer shall come to Zion, and [A.] turn away ungodliness from Jacob. 

What Paul is saying is that [partial]  blindness equates to ungodliness.   Contrariwise, the blindness is removed when ALL OF ISRAEL,  is walking in godliness.   Paul goes even further to say that it is the Deliverer coming to Zion that will accomplish that purpose. 

God tells us exactly when Israel turns back unto God and I can reference the scriptures. Did Jesus DELIVER US ? Of course he did, and Jesus will deliver Israel Spiritually FIRST (and I can prove this) AND then deliver Israel Physically at the Second Advent. So Israel has to REPENT before Jesus returns, if you stop and think about your position for ONE SECOND you will realize that you have to be wrong. If your version of thinking was correct, Jesus could have just delivered an UNREPENTANT Israel in 70 AD right ? RIGHT ? So Israel has to REPENT FIRST before Jesus comes back to save them at the end of the 70th week. Our Righteousness is ALWAYS Faith in God, it was with Abraham, David, Daniel, John, Peter, Paul, and you & I. Why would Jesus have waited 2000 years to do what he could have done in 70 AD ? Save Israel and thus get them to REPENT or adore him as their loving Messiah. That is not the way Faith works, God would be wrong to show up and SAVE THEM, but condemn all others who died in their sins to hell. So your way of thinking, that Jesus just shows up and SAVES ALL Israel is just not correct brother.

So I assume you are going to agree with me now, so lets go over WHERE, WHY and HOW All Israel are Saved. 

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

HERE, Israel REPENTS !! Accepts their Messiah as Lord and Mourn.

Zachariah 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

IN THAT DAY, verse 1, means in the day Israel REPENTS, God will open a Fountain {NOT RESCUE THEM} unto Israel for SINS & UNCLEANESS. 

In verses 8 and 9 God says that 2/3 will be CUT OFF but that He will refine the 1/3 who REPENT {come through the fire} and they will hear his name and call God their God again, and God will call them His people. 

All this happens BEFORE the Day of the Lord, the DAY that the Anti-Christ GOES FORTH in the Middle of the week, Zechariah 14:1-2 tells us that!

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

The ABOVE is the Anti-Christ Conquering Jerusalem {Daniel 12:7 the TIME, TIMES and Half or 1260 Event} to BECOME the Beast. Israel has already REPENTED as we see in Zechariah chapters 12 and 13 !! BELOW we see Jesus returning to SAVE Israel, but they have already REPENTED !!

Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Its VERY CLEAR what the time-line of Israels REPENTANCE is, all we got to do is read the bible instead of assuming. Malachi tells us also.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

So Malachi also says Israel REPENTS BEFORE the Day of the Lord !! Which is when the Anti-Christ goes forth to Conquer Jerusalem {Zechariah 14:1-2}.

Now everything that happens MAKES SENSE by using THIS TIME-LINE that I lay out above. Why would the Jews do what Jesus advised them to do in Matthew 24 and Flee Judea ? Because they have already REPENTED and Elijah told them what to do AND they read it in Matt. 24. If the Jews had not already REPENTED them Fleeing Judea for Petra would make no sense !! 

Everything in Daniel ch. 12 is A NUMBER of days from the Event Jesus Mentions until Jesus Second Coming ENDS THESE WONDERS they are just BACKWARDS in nature, they all are a set number of days from a specified "EVENT" until Jesus returns to end all these things Gabriel was showing Daniel.

1335 is A BLESSING......What better blessing could Israel have than ACCEPTING Christ as their Messiah ? The Two-witnesses show up BEFORE the Beast and thus DIE before the Beast {1260 days}, but they turn Israel back unto God like Malachi 4:5-6 says. 

1290 is the Abomination of Desolation AND the taking away of THE SACRIFICE {Jesus}. Why would Gabriel and the Man in Linen {Jesus} be talking about a MEAT SACRIFICE to Daniel ? They wouldn't, this False Prophet takes away THE SACRIFICE or Forbids Jesus Worship, this can't be the Anti-Christ because hes not allowed to GO FORTH until the 1260 Event 30 days after this !! Jesus was being worshiped after the 1335 and the High Priest {False Prophet} FORBID Jesus worship in the Temple if not in all Jerusalem !! Then he sets up an IMAGE of the E.U. President in the Temple of God. The 1290 happens 1290 days from the Second Coming. 

1260 is the Anti-Christ Conquering the holy peoples 1260 days from the Second Coming.

ALL Israel doesn't mean ALL Jews, it means Israel as a Nation is preserved, thus God's promise to Abraham is preserved. Galatians 3 tells us that those who are of God are Israel, meaning the Jews of course. So ONLY those who repent and come to God by Faith are of God and will be Israel going forth. Likewise, only us Gentiles who repent are of God also. But we are still God's Gentile Church. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Revelation Man

[OldCoot]

Some that have a problem with the pre-70th week removal seem fixated on separating out that the entire week is not God’s wrath.

Let’s try looking at this another way.   Was not the wrath of the Father poured out on the Son when He was crucified?  I seem to get that idea when I read Isaiah 53, Psalms 22, etc.

But who was it that beat Him so bad that all His bones were out of joint?   Who was it that turned Him into hamburger with all the whippings?   Who was it that nailed Him to that cross?   Well it sure wasn’t God personally.  

So it is not all extreme to suggest all the stuff going on throughout the 7 year period is in fact the wrath of God upon the world.

But why would that wrath also come upon those saints of that time?  Well, since the redeemed are caught up before the 7 years started, those saints are not saints when things get cranked up.  It would seem the removal and the calamities coming upon the earth will shake them out of their stupor 

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

26 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I don't find the cross to be the wrath of God.   

Rom 1:18 KJV For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Act 4:12 KJV Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Mat 26:53-54     Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Read Isaiah 53 and Psalms 22 and get back with us.  Try looking at the other 3/4 of the Bible instead of trying to establish doctrine from only the NT.  Act like a Berean.

if one does not understand that it was the wrath of the Father poured out on the Son for our sin, they do not understand the Gospel.

Edited February 18, 2020 by OldCoot

[WilliamL]

On 2/16/2020 at 8:24 PM, JoeCanada said:

Hi Salvation 67,

"I can't understand how people can believe our Lord and Savior would allow his His children to be persecuted and killed off in such a manner just because it happened in the OT"

If we look in the New Testament, look at what Paul tells us in .....2 Thes 1:4........ " we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. 

This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering"....2 Thes 1: 5

So here we see the reason why we go thru tribulation.....(persecution, affliction, etc).....so that we will be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God!

Why does God allow the majority of His children to suffer persecution, tribulation, affliction....for the past 2000 years? Why does He allow many to be tortured, beaten to death, crucified, beheaded, burned alive, cut in pieces......not just in the past, but today, ongoing as I type? Why? 

Why do you think that God shouldn't allow persecution, tribulation, affliction to a privileged few.....those in the western church....ie: North American Churches? (for example)

Are we better than those brothers and sisters in some 53 nations around the world where they are persecuted for their faith in Christ? Where they are chased out of their homes, businesses. Where they are forced to flee. With nothing but what they can carry....maybe.

We have it WAY too easy!

That will change. Then we will see if, or how well, the self-indulgent American Laodicean Church will be able to humble itself. So as to be truly saved in God's Kingdom, not their own castles.

The tribulation period of the believers in Christ's Gospel (to and for whom Matt. 24 was written)  isn't going to last for 7 years. Or 3-1/2. Old Testament prophecies about Israel, such as Daniel 7 and 9, have nothing to do with the Church. Fortunately for the Church!

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Isa 53:10 KJV Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Psa 22:24 KJV For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Try the entire chapters of each

[OldCoot]

On 2/18/2020 at 9:52 PM, Da Puppers said:

I am going to leave the exegeses to you since you are the one making the claim that the Son was the recipient of God's wrath.   

Be Blessed 

I would, but I am not really in shape to tackle many of these discussions in depth any longer.  Probably why I was not quick to respond.   I was diagnosed last friday with Esophageal cancer.   it is a rather virulent form.   Was not going to see the Oncologist till next Monday,  but I had to go to ER today.   I am now on home hospice care with about 2 weeks to live.  No treatment, no surgery available.   Only a miracle of the Lord can happen now.  

So looks like we will likely have to continue the discussion in the kingdom.   

[A Christian 1985]

youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=rVEJNRDsIL0

amazon.com/s?k=9781641407922&ref=nb_sb_noss

 

The Rapture, comprehensively explained

January 18, 2020

The Rapture

        They cried with a loud voice, "0 Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?" Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their follow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. (Rev. 6:10‑11 RSV)

      The day will come when God, who is patient and long‑suffering for our sakes, will respond to these prayers of His martyred saints and wrap things up. What will be involved in such a wrap‑up?

        I saw in the night visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that till the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion in an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. (Dan. 7:13‑14)

        until the ancient of days came, and judgement was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.... But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever. (Dan. 7:22,18)

      There are two distinct aspects to the kingdom, depicted here: The first aspect is when "one like unto a son of man" (Christ) receives the kingdom from the "ancient of days" (God). The second aspect is when Christ bequeaths and jointly shares His kingdom with His chosen ones, the saints of the Most High. What is the significance of these two different aspects?

 

        And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, the kingdom of God cometh not with observation: (Luke 17:20).

      On the one hand, the Lord says that the kingdom of God comes without observation, yet in several other places he relates specific outward signs of the coming of the kingdom. Why is this so?

        Neither shall they say, Lo, here! Or, there! For lo, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:21)

And madest them (to be) unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon the earth. (Rev. 6:10)

        And Jesus answered and spake again in parables unto them, Saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a certain king, who made a marriage feast for his son, (Matt. 22:1‑2)

        But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only. (Matt. 24:36)

looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God. . . (2 Pet. 3:12)

        to whom God was pleased to make known this mystery ... which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: (Col. 1:27)

... may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, even Christ: (Eph. 4:15)

        Be patient therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. (James 5:7 NASB)

you are God's field ... (1 Cor. 3:9 NASB)

The hidden aspect of the kingdom that comes without observation is this: God the Father is preparing a bride for His Son composed out of people he has chosen from before the foundation of the world. These people are constituted a kingdom unto Christ by letting Christ rule in them. This denying of the self to let Christ rule in them is dependent on the exercise by them of their free will; thus the day of God is not a set date- its coming can be hastened by greater numbers of believers allowing Christ to mature in them and by their letting Him mature in them faster.  (See Appendix.  XII.)

      Not all who are called will be chosen; not all believers will pay the price in this life to let Christ rule in them and thus constitute them a kingdom to Him. This hidden kingdom, which will be the bride to Christ, is a present from one person of the Triune God (the Father) to another person of the Triune God (Christ the Son). What good is a present if the exact time of this giving is not a surprise? This is why not even Christ knows the day and hour when this kingdom will be given to Him. Only the Father knows. The day and hour depends on a sufficient maturity of Christ in an adequate number of believers, sufficient enough to adequately express Christ as His bride and reign with Him during the time of the second aspect of the kingdom. What is the second, open aspect of the kingdom?

        Look at yourselves, that ye lose not the things which we have wrought, but that ye receive a full reward. (2 John 8)

For many are called, but few are chosen. (Matt. 22:14)

... called saints ... (Rom 1:7)

        And now I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you the inheritance among all them that are sanctified. (Acts 20:32)

        And if children, then heirs; heir of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him. (Rom 8:17)

      The co‑reigning with Christ during the millennial kingdom, which is a 1,000‑year wedding feast, is a reward to those believers who go on to be overcomers- ­those who allow Christ to overcome their self‑life and thus transform their souls into His image. All believers will be the new Jerusalem (the wife of Christ) in eternity, but only the overcomers will be the bride of Christ during the millennium.

        when he shall come to be glorified in his saints ... (2 Thess. 1:10).

        And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Tim. 3:16 Intl. Greek)

        For yourselves know perfectly well that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. When they are saying, Peace and safety, then suddenly destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child: and they shall in no wise escape. (1 Thess. 5:2‑3)

      To those overcoming believers who are daily living the kingdom life in their spiritual walk, the rapture will just be a change of location and a fuller enjoyment of what they are experiencing. To both the world and the believers who are not walking in spirit and ready, the rapture will come unexpectedly‑ as a thief in the night.

And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her hand a crown of twelve stars, and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered. (Rev. 12:1‑2)

      This sign is a type of all the believers, both Old Testament and New Testament believers, who are always spoken of corporately with respect to God in female types. The woman herself is the universal church: all born‑again believers of all New Testament time. This aspect of the rapture is a hidden one, as the coming of the Lord as a thief in the night is compared also to a woman in travail in (1 Thess. 5:2‑3) above‑ this is the woman in travail spoken of by the apostle in that verse. Also, the beginning of travail spoken of in (Mark 13:7‑8) refers to the start of the church age, not to the end times. What is this child that she is travailing in birth to deliver?

and he made us (to be) a kingdom, (to be) priests unto God and his Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (Rev. 1:6)

        and he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my Father: (Rev. 2:26‑27)

        And she was delivered of a son, a man-child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne. (Rev. 12:5)

      The man‑child brought forth by this woman will be the resurrection of the overcoming believers throughout history, who are no longer physically alive. These are the stronger ones of God's people who led victorious spiritual lives while alive on the earth. Because they are the stronger part of God's people (the woman), they are referred to as a man‑child: they are a part of the woman yet they are also distinct from the rest of her. This woman, the universal church, has been pregnant since the church age began and has been travailing to give birth since then. The birth-rapture of the man‑child will occur shortly before the tribulation begins.

      From all this we may surely infer that, although Satan is a rebel, he has not yet been deprived either of his title or his power. He is till the great High One on high, who divides the world into different provinces according to its nationalities, appointing a powerful angel, assisted by countless subordinates, as viceroy over each kingdom to direct its energies and bend them to his will. 295

And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom, become our God's and the authority is become his Christ's: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their (soul) lives even unto death. (Rev. 12:10)­

      When the man‑child is caught up to God, there is no longer any use, excuse or room for Satan and his fallen angels in heaven; the faithful angels under Michael are ordered by the overcomers to cast them out of heaven. This will be the fulfillment of the coming of the kingdom in its hidden aspect.

        And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel. (Rev. 7:4)

        And she was delivered of a son, a man‑child, who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.... And they overcame him (Satan) ... (Rev. 12:6, 11)

        To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God. (Rev., 2:7)

such a one caught up even to the third heaven ... (2 Cor. 12:21)

        And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.... These were purchased from among men, to be the first‑fruits unto God and unto the Lamb. (Rev. 14:1,4)

        and to bring the first fruits of our ground, and the first-fruits of all fruit of all manner of trees, year by year, unto the house of Jehovah: (Neh. 10:35).

        But watch ye at every season, making supplication that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36)

        Because thou (Philadelpha, the church off brotherly love) hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Rev. 3:10 KJV)

      The 144,000 sealed of the children of Israel are faithful Jews who will pass through the Tribulation on the earth; they are sealed for protection from the supernatural afflictions of that time. These will repent shortly before the Lord's physical return (covered later in Subsection G.) and are probably a literal number.

      The 144,000 on the heavenly Mount Zion, however, is a symbolic number signifying the maturity and completion of these believers and is probably not a literal number‑ since such maturity is not predestined and depends on the exercise of free will. Enoch, who was translated alive to heaven by God because he was well pleasing to God, was an Old Testament type of the rapture of these first‑fruits. This symbolical number of redeemed are the living overcomers raptured as first‑fruits to God, and (like the man‑child) are raptured not to the clouds, as will be the majority of living believers at the general harvest in Revelation 14:14‑16, but to heaven. This occurs shortly after or simultaneously with the rapture of the man‑child and also precedes the Tribulation.

        Likewise even as it came to pass in the days of Lot; they ate, they drunk, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; but in the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all: after the same manner shall it be in the day that the Son of man is revealed. (Luke 17:28‑30)

        And as were the days of Noah so shall be the coming of the Son of man. For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man (Matt. 24:37‑39)

…but He that taketh refuge in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain. (Isa. 57:13)

        And they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand? (Rev. 6:16‑17)

      As we shall see, the coming of the Lord (and the rapture) starts at the beginning of the three‑and‑a‑half‑year Tribulation and ends with the physical return of Christ at the end of the Tribulation. The beginning of the coming of Christ (and the rapture) will occur without much specific prior warning and will catch the world by surprise. These events will alarm the world, and everyone will begin to realize what is happening.

Seek the Lord while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near. (Isa. 55:6 NASB)

      We are now in the age of grace, with repentance and forgiveness of sins available to all men. The age of grace ends with the coming of the kingdom age and the coming of Christ. But the kingdom comes (in one aspect) three and a half years before Christ returns physically; and Christ begins to return three and a half years before His physical return to the Earth. According to all Scriptural implications (as we shall see) and the ramifications of free will, the age of grace may end at or shortly after the beginning of the Tribulation: repentance and forgiveness of sins, with regeneration, may not be available during the Tribulation (and certainly not afterwards).

        And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they were looking steadfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two man stood by them in white apparel; who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven. (Acts 1:9‑11)

        And the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (Mark 13:26‑27)

        And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown. And in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped. (Rev. 14:14‑16)

        Then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:17)

      Christ will return in the same way that He left: Sometime after the rapture of the man child and first‑fruits, He will leave His throne and come to the atmosphere of the Earth, hidden in the clouds. The living believers who are left will then be caught up to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. The Judgement‑Seat of Christ will be set up in the clouds during this time (this is what the “one like unto a son of man”, Christ, will be sitting on), and it is then that the Lord will decide whether each believer will receive the reward of the millennial kingdom or suffer punishment (a further disciplining needed to bring them to maturity) during that time.

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn. (Matt. 13:30)

      As we have seen, the return of Christ will occur over a three and a half year period and will be of two aspects: firstly, in a hidden way as a thief in the night to steal away His most precious ones (the man‑child and the first‑fruits) and, secondly, at His actual visible return from the clouds. Thus are these and other apparently contradictory verses reconciled, being illustrations of the two differing aspects of the same process.

        And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt 24:31)

        And the seven angels that had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. (Rev. 8:6)

        For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump (et) of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:15‑17)

      The rapture of the large majority of the living believers left on the earth after the rapture of the first‑fruits will occur towards the end of the Tribulation, almost certainly in the last three months.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (et): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 16:5 1‑52)

        And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed goat voices in heaven, and they said, the kingdom of the world is become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign forever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)

        And the kingdom and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High: his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. (Dan. 7:27)

      At the sounding of the last (the seventh) trumpet, all the remaining believers still on the earth will be raptured to the clouds, preceded by the dead in Christ who were not overcomers during their lifetimes and thus were not part of the man‑child. In this way all believers, living and dead, will stand before the judgment seat of Christ, to receive a reward (reign with Christ during the millennial kingdom) or suffer punishment (a further disciplining during the millennium), before the actual, physical return of Christ to the Earth after the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

THE LATE‑OVERCOMERS

      Unlike the rapture of the majority of the believers, the rapture of the first fruits (the living overcomers) will occur before the Tribulation. If you miss out on this and still want to be an overcomer, there is a "short‑cut" of sorts possible.

And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: ... And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet a little time, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course. (Rev. 6:9, 11)

        And it was given unto him to give breath to it, even to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as should not worship the image of the beast should be killed. (Rev 13:15)

        And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and the voice which I heard was as the voice of harpers harping with their harps: and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could

learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth. (Rev. 14:1‑3)

        And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire; and them that come off victorious from the beast and from his image, and from the number of his name, standing by the sea of glass, having harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb…(Rev. 15:2-3)

        And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; and I saw that souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4)

      When the Antichrist sets up his image in the temple at Jerusalem, you can go there, refuse to worship him, and be beheaded on the spot. If you do that, you also will reign with Christ during the millennial kingdom.

        Here is the steadfastness of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.  (Rev. 14:12)

      Who are those who keep the commandments of God? The Jews. Who are those who have the faith of Jesus? The Christians. The Antichrist will persecute both the Christians and the Jews when he rises to power. Also among the Late‑Overcomers will be the Jews who refuse to worship the image of the beast. Imagine his surprise when, after death, such a Jew (who is still awaiting a promised Messiah) is set on a throne by Christ to co‑reign with Him for a thousand years!

      But there is a catch to all this: as in everything else, self-effort is not of real value in regards to spiritual matters. The description of the Antichrist's persecution of God's people implied by the original language is that of making war on them by wearing them out, and not necessarily immediately putting them to death. If you go to Jerusalem with the intention of martyrdom but without the express leading of the Lord in your spirit to do so, most likely instead of being allowed to be a martyr, you will be thrown into prison and tortured. Everything is a matter of the Lord's will, not our self‑effort.

 

SUMMARY OF THE RAPTURE:

      Shortly before the Tribulation begins, the overcomers will be raptured to the throne of God in heaven. The dead overcomers (the man‑child) will be resurrected and raptured first, followed shortly by the living overcomers (the first‑fruits). The large majority of living believers will pass through most of the Tribulation and be raptured as the general harvest not to heaven but to the clouds. Toward the very end of the Tribulation and shortly before the literal physical return of the Lord to the Earth, the dead non‑overcomers, immediately followed by the living non‑overcomers still left on the earth, will be raptured to the clouds also. All of the believers will stand before the judgment seat of Christ, to receive a reward or suffer discipline. Those who need further disciplining to mature will be cast into outer darkness for the duration of the millennial kingdom. Those who receive a reward will return with the Lord to fight at Armageddon and reign with Him during the millennial kingdom, which will be a thousand‑year wedding feast. You cannot lose your salvation/regeneration. ALL born-again (believers) WILL be the New Jerusalem for eternity future.