Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[OldCoot]

14 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

 If that were true then revelation can not be used to determine when the rapture takes place.  In essence,  you would be organizing the revelation to fit ones timing of the rapture. 

The PuP 

One has a lot of material in Revelation, and Chapter 12 that we are discussing now is not the only part that alludes to a early removal of the Church.  And no, I am not referring to John being caught up in Chapter 4. Much deeper.

chapter 12 requires a lot of the Tanakh to clarify.  But then Revelation is 404 verses with over 800 allusions back to the OT.  That is why some call Revelation the reader’s digest condensed version.  It requires one to really do their homework in the Tanakh.

Edited February 15, 2019 by OldCoot

[Littlelambseativy]

That is why the rapture was looked for in Paul’s time, Peter’s time and before that ...the disciples looked for the rapture. The Rapture is not time specific, however never have so many prophecies been fulfilled...including The formation of Israel, the dry bones coming together and returning to Israel....the earth is groaning like never before..with earthquakes, storms, volcanoes etc. we are either in the time of the rapture or very close to it.  That is why we must be ready because no one knows the hour of our Lord’s return.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Littlelambseativy

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Really not my focus on the Woman’s thoughts on these things.  The Church is not the Woman of Revelation 12, Jacob (Israel) is.    And the a Woman of Revelation 12 doesn’t get to hold her child, as it is caught up (harpazo-rapture-forcibly snatched away) as soon as it is born.

Not sure if that is a sarcastic whiff or if you actually missed the point altogether.  Doesn't really matter, I guess.

[OldCoot]

2 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I think we agree that the harpazo of the church is found in Rev 12.  But the bible does not support the idea that Satan is cast out of heaven and the great tribulation beginning at that time. 

The PuP 

Possibly.  When is the Antichrist revealed?

[OldCoot]

Well the falling away actually started in Genesis 3.  And really kicked into gear in Genesis 4.  Paul exclaimed in Acts that all of Asia had heard the Gospel and when He wrote Timothy later he said that all in Asia had now turned away.  So again, not sure falling away is a marker of anything. And I am not convinced falling away is the correct translation of 2 Thessalonians 2.

Edited February 15, 2019 by OldCoot

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I think you are reading more into it than what is there.  Now I do believe that there will be a reward for those who eagerly long for His appearing, and that would probably be related to holding a pre-trib position since all the other positions seem to be focused on the Antichrist and the other stuff going on. 

2 Timothy 4:8  Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

And really, isn't this situation kind of weird?  Folks who are redeemed so focused on the Antichrist, what seals happen when, how many do we go thru, etc instead of longing for the catching away of the redeemed which seems to be much of the emphasis in the NT as the blessed hope?  Worrying about being ready for the Tribulation instead of being ready for our gathering to the Messiah?   Frankly, the latter seems more in line with "we have not been given a spirit of fear".

And those poor Thessalonians were so worried that the Day of the Lord / Tribulation had started because a fake letter had been circulating regarding that idea, that Paul had to remind them of what he taught them,  that day would not happen until the departure occurs so that the Man of Sin / Antichrist could be revealed.  It would seem that Paul was making sure they understood that they would not go into that period of the Antichrist / GT / Seals / Bowls, etc.   The first seal in Revelation is the revealing of the Antichrist, and Paul wrote that the departure would happen before that could occur.

One can argue about whether it is departure or falling away in 2 Thessalonians 2, but a spiritual falling away has been going on since Genesis 3.  And clearly during Paul's time while he was alive.....

Acts 19:10 And this continued for two years, so that all who dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

2 Timothy 1:15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes

So it would seem that a "falling away" is nothing really unique and significant to hang one's hat on.  But a physical departure is.  Jerome thought so when he did the Latin Vulgate.  He used dicessio which means a physical departure.  And many English translations prior to the KJV also used "a departure", "the departure", or simply "departure".  

While I am firmly in the camp of thought that all who are in Messiah are redeemed and will ride the same bus out of here, I also have a image of when the removal happens, the pre-trib crowd might be doing a big "YES!" while those in the other camps will be doing a "Uh-Oh, didn't see that coming."   Just my goofy imagination running amok.  But could this also have a bearing on who will "love His appearing" and gain that crown Paul wrote about?  I don't know.  But it does cause one to wonder.

I am so eager for the removal that I jokingly tell friends that I go out in the yard and jump up and down for rapture practice.  I have a bizarre sense of humor.

But all of this division and debating will fall quickly away when we all celebrate together our redemption in the presence of Yeshua! Crowns or not.

Most of what you write is "right on" and I agree. However, you are missing it on the first seal. You have pulled it out of its first century, early church context. Go back to chapter 5 and notice the TIMING: Jesus just found worthy (because He had just risen from the dead); then ascended into heaven (right after telling Mary not to touch Him) and send the Holy Spirit down. This was written to show us TIMING.  

I am 100% with you are eagerness for His coming. I was ready yesterday, and more ready today. It just could be this year!

I like to read the personal testimonies of those whom God has taken to see heaven, or hell, or both. Also some have seen the 70th week in vision form.  One person who saw the 70th week saw a pastor banging his head against the wall saying, "why am I left behind? Why am I left behind?" The girl as Jesus: "why was he left behind?" Jesus reply to her was: "He thought my coming was way out in the future..."   This could mean several things: perhaps because he thought the rapture was far away into the future, he was not living right! Or, perhaps he was living right, but he was NOT "looking for His coming." 

I got to meet Gary L Wood, who died in a car crash, and went to heaven; but his little sister prayed him back. His neck was broken  - the top two parts - doctors say no one can live with such an injury!  His voice box was crushed, and his vocal cords cut in two.  Yes, when sister prayed him back from heaven, God healed everything.  It seems, people that have been there and came back just preach with more authority! I love His testimony.  

Jesus, COME QUICKLY!

[iamlamad]

32 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Since we have started with Isa 66, let me show you something.   

Verse list:    
Isa 66:15-20 KJV    For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

2Th 1:7-10 KJV    And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Mat 24:14 KJV    And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

We can see the parallel thoughts of Paul in 2 Thess 1 with those of Isa 66.  Paul speaks of it as being the time when the saints shall receive rest at the revealing of Christ with the holy angels,  aka the rapture.   But going back to Isa 66, we find that messengers will be sent out,  FROM. among those that survived the revealing of Christ.   But look at what it says of TO WHOM Z they will be sent.   "Those who have not seen of his glory,  nor have heard of his fame ".  To put it bluntly,  he says that there will be those who, after his revealing,  have neither heard nor seen of his fame or glory.   So,  now you see why I posted Matt 24:14.  The gospel of the kingdom will not have been preached in all the world until the end comes.   It's not talking about the gospel of grace,  but rather the gospel of the kingdom.   The kingdom of God.   The children of Israel/ kingdom will have been scattered into all of the world... The four winds... as a result of the GT.  (Isa 11:11-12).  This is when the gathering together of the elect shall begin.   This mirrors what is found in Matt 24:29-31 and the gathering together found in 2 Thess 2.

Blessings

The PuP 

I disagree. Paul speaks of it as being the time when the saints shall receive rest at the revealing of Christ with the holy angels,  aka the rapture. 

This would be His Rev. 19 coming, not His 1 Thes. 4 coming.  Of course, if you imagine He will only come once more....we will have a bigger disagreement!  Yes, the gathering in Matthew 24 is certainly AFTER the tribulation. It is written in so many words. But the gathering in 2 thes. 2 is the same gathering as in 1 Thes. 4.  It comes before the trib - so they cannot be the same gathering. We don't need to go back to Isaiah to prove that.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

Well the falling away actually started in Genesis 3.  And really kicked into gear in Genesis 4.  Paul exclaimed in Acts that all of Asia had heard the Gospel and when He wrote Timothy later he said that all in Asia had now turned away.  So again, not sure falling away is a marker of anything. And I am not convinced falling away is the correct translation of 2 Thessalonians 2.

I agree: there has ALWAYS been a falling away, but usually more COME than fall away. The church has steadily grown in numbers for many years now. 

How in the world would ANYONE know when enough had fallen away to where they could say, "THAT is what Paul was talking about! I am with OldCoot on this one. "Departing" fits the context of this passage far better. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

After the death of the little horn of Daniel 7.  Thete are 2 evil figures found in Daniel 7, not just one. 

The little horn rises AMONG the 10 horns of the beast and uproots 3 of the other horns. 

*[[Dan 7:8]] KJV* I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up AMONG them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. 

But ANOTHER shall arise AFTER them,  and he shall subdue the other 3 kings (of the 4 that arise from the earth) :

*[[Dan 7:24]] KJV* And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and ANOTHER shall RISE AFTER them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

The little horn is the one who is responsible for breaking the whole world in pieces (via the GT);

*[[Dan 7:23]] KJV* Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

A beast, both here in Daniel and in Revelation represents a kingdom.   Granted a kingdom is not a kingdom without a king.   Daniel 7 is all about four endtime kingdoms.  But this fourth kingdom involves the rule by two kings.  Firstly by the little horn until he dies:

*[[Dan 7:11]] KJV* I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 

But what follows is the most important part.   

Without the little horn to reign over this 4th kingdom,  his kingdom ceases.   But then we also see (take note that this is AFTER the little horn dies)  the other 3 beasts lose their dominion, in essence their kingdom.   And ANOTHER then arises after this 10 horned kingdom meets its demise.

*[[Dan 7:12]] KJV* As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

*[[Dan 7:13]] KJV* I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

*[[Dan 7:14]] KJV* And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Here we see that the Son of man, aka the man child who is to rule with a rod of iron,  being caught up in the clouds of heaven AND being given his kingdom.   We should see this in 2 places in Rev. 

*[[Rev 12:10]] KJV* And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW IS COME salvation, and strength, and the KINGDOM OF  OUR GOD, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

*[[Rev 11:15]] KJV* And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Now notice that it is in the days of these kings,  which includes that kingdom involving the 10 toes: 

*[[Dan 2:44]] KJV* And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven SET UP A KINGDOM, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

The little horn and the one that arises after to rule this 4th beast from the earth of Daniel 7 is no less than the beast FROM THE SEA (little horn)  and the beast FROM THE EARTH.   Otherwise known as the Beast  & False Prophet,  they both will rule over this 4th beast, aka kingdom.   

So,  whereas Daniel tells us that this little horn dies (body given to the burning flame), John tells us that he will live again and be allowed to continue for an additional 42 months. 

*[[Rev 13:3]] KJV* And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. [4] And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?*5* And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

As you probably know,  a Jewish year is based on a lunar calendar and some years have 12 months and some have 13.  This means that there will be no less than 37 months (at least 1 extra month will be added)  in any given 3 year period.   This further means that there will be  43 or 44 months in a period of 3 years and 6 months (3.5 years).  So,  we can know that the 42 months of Rev 13 (et al) is going to be a month or two months shy of 3.5 years.   And this is exactly what we find in Daniel 7:

*[[Dan 7:25]] KJV* And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Notice that this verse ends with "the dividing of time", and not "half a time" found in Daniel 12 in referring to when the GT starts, OR in Rev 12 when referring to the woman being fed in the wilderness: 

*[[Rev 12:14]] KJV* And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

When The beast from the earth (rev 13) rises, this is  the time when the man of sin is revealed.   The time of falling away [2 Thess 2] that precedes the revealing of the man of sin, could be the result of the GT, OR it could also be the rapture,  OR it could be referring to both. This is because there is about a month of time that comes between Satan being cast out of heaven and the revealing of the beast at the 42 month mark.  

Did I answer your question? 

Blessings

The PuP 

I doubt this seriously - except for the scriptures quoted. 

When the man of sin enters the new temple and declares he is the God of the Jews, THAT is when He is revealed to the Jews as to who he really is. Those that read the New Testament will know He will become the Beast of Rev. 13. Where is this in Revelation? The 7th trumpet will sound in heaven to mark the moment that the man of sin declares he is God.  Note carefully that in 12:6 we see them fleeing because they have just seen the abomination Jesus spoke of.  If we back from from 12:6 looking for a real time event, we come to the 7th trumpet. That will be the exact midpoint of the week.  

Note that in 11:1 & 2 the man of sin enters Jerusalem. (He MUST be in Jerusalem to enter the temple in Jerusalem. He will come with his Gentile armies. They will trample the city for 42 months.  My guess is, he will enter Jerusalem just 3 1/2 days before he will enter the temple and divide the week.  This is John's first hint that he is very close to the midpoint.

Next, we see the arrival of the two witnesses: They arrive because the man of sin just arrived. They DO arrive just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint. They testify for 1260 days and then die, just 3.5 days before the end of the week.  This is John's second hint that he is VERY close to the midpoint in his narrative. 

Then we have the fleeing in 12:6, just a second or two after the abomination. (give them a second for reaction time!). This is John's 3rd hint, and it is the closest: just a second or two after the abomination. 

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I think we agree that the harpazo of the church is found in Rev 12.  But the bible does not support the idea that Satan is cast out of heaven and the great tribulation beginning at that time. 

The PuP 

Not one chance in a trillion! Paul tells us HIS rapture will come a moment before God's wrath begins - and John tells us that is at the 6th seal. Since the 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church - and they are told they must wait for the very last church age martyr, this shows us the church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seals all this time. When the time comes, the rapture will take place, triggering the 6th seal. Rev. 12: 1-5 , is about JESUS and how the devil tried to use King Herod to murder Jesus as a young child. But he fulfilled His ministry and was called up to heaven. Sorry, NOTHING about the church here. The church was taken up in Revelation just before the 6th seal. Then John SAW the church in heaven in chapter 7. By chapter 12, it will be 3.5 years later.

Edited February 16, 2019 by iamlamad