"Paul's thorn"

[com7fy8]

13 hours ago, PromisesPromises! said:

He could ONLY have accomplished all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit within him,

Paul took care of the churches, traveling included, plus he worked with his own hands to take care of not only himself but those with him. This would take ability to do things without stressing out and burning out; grace could keep him from breaking down in workaholic passion and lack of self control; plus, God could lead him with perfect timing so he did everything without wasting energy, including how God could orchestrate people and things around Paul.

But he needed to learn how to stay in grace, so he could do this.

One time, I was doing yard work for my mother. I had heaped brush on a wheelbarrow, as much as I thought I could, so I could make as few trips as possible. As I rolled it along, it just seemed to pull itself over and dump itself on the asphalt . . . while I struggled to keep it upright. And in me I heard blasphemous language; so I knew I was in trouble. I had given in to pushing to get the work done, and in my pushy ego's weakness the devil could get to me. So, I knew I needed to stop, right away, while God corrected me and restored me into peace with Him, then see what He had me doing.

Possibly, I had gotten into that trouble in me because I did what my ego had me do; so may be God would have me doing something else; of He would have me doing the same thing, but better. Then, yes, I would say, He did keep doing the chore; and He encouraged me that I should appreciate doing something for my mother, instead of only trying to get it over with. It was not if I should do it, but how, in that case.

So, a point I offer here is, I was not going through some great heroic hardship for Jesus, but I needed to be tested in order to expose how my ego was in what I was doing so I was not really doing it with God in His peace. Therefore, the thorn thing can work while we are doing things which might not seem so great and important and impressive. And God wants us to share with Him, all the time, in His grace ?

[com7fy8]

On 2/8/2019 at 6:15 AM, Tzephanyahu said:

I wonder how Paul would have been had he not had this "thorn". Was it for his benefit alone? Maybe it was also for the new believers, so that they wouldn't put him on a pedestal as well. Maybe it was to teach us to keep on keeping on, even if the flesh objects...

 

17 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Due to all the revelations  paul had been given , this THORN would help keep him humble .

This is what Paul said.

Even so > in the process of becoming humble, this would make Paul stronger in God's love which would have various effects. This includes how God's love makes us more and more unconditionally loving, and I notice how a later verse here says,

"And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved." (2 Corinthians 12:15)

So, yes the immediate purpose was to make Paul humble about his revelations, but the humility of Jesus in us effects everything. Jesus is humble . . . not conceited; so Jesus left Heaven itself to come here to reach us and save us and share His very own good of His love with us. So, this also would be working with the humility which the grace of Jesus gave to Paul. And, like I say, I notice how Paul can make his unconditional statement, in 2 Corinthians 12:15 after he tells us about his thorn thing.

The grace of God's all-loving love did more than defend Paul from ego and pride stuff. Grace does not only defend us against sin things, but grace changes us to be more and more like Jesus. And in God's grace we have His personal leading and guiding, in His own peace > Colossians 3:15 > "and you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

Satan can not make us humble, by the way. He can test us, he can expose how we are not being humble. But only God's grace can change us to be truly humble in His love.

[frienduff thaylorde]

1 hour ago, com7fy8 said:

 

This is what Paul said.

Even so > in the process of becoming humble, this would make Paul stronger in God's love which would have various effects. This includes how God's love makes us more and more unconditionally loving, and I notice how a later verse here says,

"And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved." (2 Corinthians 12:15)

So, yes the immediate purpose was to make Paul humble about his revelations, but the humility of Jesus in us effects everything. Jesus is humble . . . not conceited; so Jesus left Heaven itself to come here to reach us and save us and share His very own good of His love with us. So, this also would be working with the humility which the grace of Jesus gave to Paul. And, like I say, I notice how Paul can make his unconditional statement, in 2 Corinthians 12:15 after he tells us about his thorn thing.

The grace of God's all-loving love did more than defend Paul from ego and pride stuff. Grace does not only defend us against sin things, but grace changes us to be more and more like Jesus. And in God's grace we have His personal leading and guiding, in His own peace > Colossians 3:15 > "and you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

Satan can not make us humble, by the way. He can test us, he can expose how we are not being humble. But only God's grace can change us to be truly humble in His love.

"And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved

Take a peep at this .

How come the more paul LOVED the less he was loved .      Sounds like love comes with Correction .   True love rebukes error , and many resist this and hate the rebuker .

If we examine the seeker friendly that warren and McLaren are so fond of ,    that love did not correct those in error .  

OH we got lots of hugs and songs and unity ,    but look at that result .     Instead of correcting it led to accepting sin and now calling it love .

A recipe for disaster this type of false love is .    Do you ever wonder why you can now have folks like pope francis who keeps hollering out this love

and calls muslims his brother .    Notice Kenneth is huge on this type of so called love too .   Does anyone even bother to ponder

why on earth the language is so similar  when it comes to this love , or a type of unity , or common ground ,  or breaking down walls that divide.

IF we want to know why this language is so common ,  THEN KNOW and UNDERSTAND this was AN AGENDA .  it just got pumped into churches , faiths and even other religions

in a way that could relate to each particular blend .   But in the end it will have them all uniting as one , at least under a common world mindset with a common world love

and unity seated RIGHT UNDER the beast .   Folks got no idea that men like warren and scores of others have long been at work

with this agenda .    To make ready the people to accept the grand lie  that even now is beginning .

You would be amazed at how many are coming to this false conclusion of a false unity , a false love which is not the LOVE of GOD at all .

And if anyone was exposed to the Daniel plan , rick warren , YOU got a dose of it on a smaller level .   Infected with this many are and while some are far worse

, still it will take all and make all worse and worse under its influence as time goes on .     Only the lambs , the true ones ,  will resist the lie . 

Folks need to really start paying attention to what on earth has been going on .    Crack open them bibles and start reading the Holy scrips which make us wise

unto salvation through faith in Christ .  For many deceivers have long crept it and have long taught a sensual love , unity , peace , freedom , liberty

which panders to the flesh .   Only the true LOVE of GOD is pure , what most today teach is an acceptance love and a lets just get along type love .  BAD NEWS on that one .

[com7fy8]

56 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

"And I will very gladly spend and be spent for your souls; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved

Take a peep at this .

How come the more paul LOVED the less he was loved .      Sounds like love comes with Correction .   True love rebukes error , and many resist this and hate the rebuker .

I have considered that Paul was loved less because he said what could correct people. 

But correction is not only pointing out wrong doctrines and wrong church leaders. 

Hebrews 12:4-14

Most of all is all I need within myself, in my own character, so I become more like Jesus. 

[Michael37]

16 hours ago, com7fy8 said:

What I consider is that Paul had various powers and abilities as an apostle, for managing the church and missionary activities and reaching the lost. So, an invisible being for testing him would have various powers, also, for effecting people and events. But while Paul submitted to God's grace, this grace made Paul strong so wrong spiritual emotions and reacting could not get the better of him, plus he could be creative in this all-loving grace, no matter what the thorn messenger did.

Hence Paul thrice besought the Lord for his thorn in the flesh messenger from Satan to depart but was not undone when informed by His Lord this was not to be for administrative reasons.

[IserveIam]

On 2/8/2019 at 6:15 AM, Tzephanyahu said:

Shalom,

A fascinating subject. I heard it taught by Chuck Missler that the phrase "thorn in the flesh" was a term meaning like "a pain in the neck", not literally, but some persistent ailment.

I wonder how Paul would have been had he not had this "thorn". Was it for his benefit alone? Maybe it was also for the new believers, so that they wouldn't put him on a pedestal as well. Maybe it was to teach us to keep on keeping on, even if the flesh objects...

Love & Shalom

But Paul was put on a pedestal, one higher even then Jesus'.

[Michael37]

6 hours ago, IserveIam said:

But Paul was put on a pedestal, one higher even then Jesus'.

Maybe by some (see Acts 14:8-18 below),  but he had plenty of enemies, critics, and detractors, particularly the Judaisers who were claiming Christ was the Messiah of the Jews only. According to his letter to the Philippians Paul's troubles and incarceration were being used as proof that he was out of line with God, that he was bringing observance of the Law of Moses into disrepute, that he was glorifying himself rather than God, and that he was such a troublemaker he deserved whatever punishment the Romans might see fit to subject him to.  

Php 1:12-17
(12)  But I would you should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;
(13)  So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places;
(14)  And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.
(15)  Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
(16)  The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
(17)  But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

Act 14:8-18
(8)  And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
(9)  The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
(10)  Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on your feet. And he leaped and walked.
(11)  And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.
(12)  And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.
(13)  Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.
(14)  Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
(15)  And saying, Sirs, why do you these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that you should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:
(16)  Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.
(17)  Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.
(18)  And with these sayings scarce restrained the people from doing sacrifice unto them.

[Mozart's Starling]

I can relate to this (not because I am on Paul's level) because I have wondered often times if my thorns (OCD, bipolar) were there to humble me and be less judgemental of others. I think I have some gifts (again not on Paul's level) that if I were without these mental issues I would probably be quite arrogant, destructively so. I imagine we all have our own thorns to remind us that it is only through grace that we are forgiven and to continually keep us dependant on God (in a good way of course), as well as to make us more empathetic to our brothers and sistsers. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Mozart's Starling

[com7fy8]

18 hours ago, Mozart's Starling said:

I imagine we all have our own thorns to remind us that it is only through grace that we are forgiven and to continually keep us dependant on God (in a good way of course), as well as to make us more empathetic to our brothers and sistsers. 

I understand that Jesus left Heaven itself in order to be here with us . . . including so Jesus could go through things we go through, so that now Jesus can feel for us > Hebrews 4:15.